Question

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VanDisease

Innovation under communism

John: Communism will not work because there is no more competition. Without competition, there is no innovation.

Michael: In communism, there is still competition as countries will compete with each other. Only local competition will be absent.

 

Qs:

1. Is there any fallacy here?

2. Can there be competition and innovation under communism?

asked on Saturday, Feb 22, 2020 10:34:20 PM by VanDisease

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Comments

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mike writes:

1) If by "communism will not work" he is claiming it will stifel innovation due to lack of competition, I see no fallacy.

2) Under a pure communist system where the state controls 100 % of the means of production, I would agree that there could be very little innovation at the local level if the state is producing everything.

The response by Michael is somewhat true, think of the Soviets competing with the USA during the cold war. Competition with the USA  led them to build a nuclear weapons regime comparable in strength.

 

 

 

 

posted on Sunday, Feb 23, 2020 09:27:11 AM
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Richard Aberdeen writes:

[To mike]

Actually, under a real communist system, which human civilization has never achieved outside of a few small isolatd tribes, the people own and control everything; the state doesn't own anything and, is entirely reliable on and subject to the will of the people.  

Under a pure and true communist system as opposed to just a real communist system as described in the first paragraph above, God owns everything and, the people view themselves as non-owning caretakers of the land and other wealth, which is equally shared in common and used by each according to need.  This was achieved most effectively by first century followers of Jesus and, is also displayed in a few isolated pre-Columbus North American native cultures.

What today is called "communism", like in the former Soviet Union and current China for example, is in fact autocratic rule by a more often than not, cruel non-benevolent dictator.  Donald Trump is perhaps the most recent modern example of a would-be autocratic cruel, non-benevolent dictator in the making (given a second term).  We best hope and pray that anybody but Trump wins in 2020.

[ login to reply ] posted on Sunday, Feb 23, 2020 12:10:59 PM
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mike writes:

[To Richard Aberdeen]

The founding fathers set up the system so that such an event would be virtually impossible.

I say virtually impossible, meaning that at some point the America as we know it, as a republic, could end.

I'm talking no free and fair elections, no free speech, no rule of law etc.

Trump has 4 years, at most to pull that off, I don't see it happening.

The people who throw around the dictator label don't really understand what true dictatorship looks like IMO.

The republic will survive Trump.

Political rant over.

 

 

[ login to reply ] posted on Sunday, Feb 23, 2020 01:01:20 PM
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Michael Hurst writes:
[To Richard Aberdeen]

I thought we were supposed to be focused on logical arguments and fallacies, not political positions. Whether you are right or wrong in your comment, how does it relate to logical arguments? It is more like a comment on a news site like Hufpo or Slate.

[ login to reply ] posted on Sunday, Feb 23, 2020 03:08:15 PM
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Richard Aberdeen writes:

That's exactly what Trump and the Republicans are trying to do, no free elections, no rule of law for Trump and the party leaders, no freedom of speech, no freedom period.  You described exactly the direction Trump and the Republican wackos in the current Senate are moving.

posted on Sunday, Feb 23, 2020 01:17:00 PM
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mike writes:
[To Richard Aberdeen]

Trying to do it and pulling it off are 2 completely different things.

Whether by executive order or via congress, any attempts to tip the country in that direction will be soundly defeated, those are non partisan issues.

He'd have to start with repealing the 22nd amendment, not happening.

[ login to reply ] posted on Sunday, Feb 23, 2020 01:24:29 PM
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Richard Aberdeen writes:
[To mike]

Apparently you envision yourself as some sort of prophet.  Unlike you, I don't claim to know the future, but I do know from my study of history that the direction the current Republican Party is marching is the same direction that results in a Stalin, Hitler, Mussolini or worse coming to power.

I don't know the future, but I have zero confidence that our government will last much longer if we continue to march down Republican Party national and international suicide road.  

[ login to reply ] posted on Monday, Feb 24, 2020 12:32:51 PM
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mike writes:
[To Richard Aberdeen]

Not at all (the prophet part).

As I said before it's not inconceivable that a mature democracy could regress and turn into a dictatorship, I just don't see it happening during Trump.

[ login to reply ] posted on Monday, Feb 24, 2020 12:55:30 PM
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Richard Aberdeen writes:
[To mike]

Sorry, I was just going by what you said and, this is what you said:  "Whether by executive order or via congress, any attempts to tip the country in that direction will be soundly defeated, those are non partisan issues."

Under Trump, we have witnessed half the population and two entire branches of government (the senate and supreme court), stand by and look the other way while a totally unqualified racist, grifter, bully and thief and his corrupt attorney general have pretty much destroyed our constitutional form of government, as far as any hope of separation of powers.

I don't know the future, but I am convinced that if Trump is re-elected, we may experience a violent revolution or, we may just devolve into another freedom-less autocratic rule by a corrupt dictator and the wealthy few (which is essentially what we have now).  Even if Bernie Sanders is elected, we still have a huge problem of a right-wing leaning stacked Supreme Court and, a Senate filled with treasonous liars who would sell their own mothers out for a few lobby dollars more.  

Like I said, I don't know the future, but I am highly suspect of those who think the U.S. is immune from either dictatorial rule or a violent revolution (or both).  

[ login to reply ] posted on Monday, Feb 24, 2020 01:34:17 PM

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Answers

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Bo Bennett, PhD
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1) I see no fallacies.

2) This is more of a question for economists perhaps. As a layperson regarding communism, it would seem to me that there is truth in this, especially in a country that engages in global trade. If the country is more isolated, then there would be less competition. However, the pressures of competition would be significantly less than a capitalistic society, which could very well have a significant effect on overall innovation.

answered on Sunday, Feb 23, 2020 07:22:12 AM by Bo Bennett, PhD

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Richard Aberdeen writes:

Actually, what Bernie Sanders envisions is moving our nation away from the extreme downside of capitalist greed more towards a Democratic Socialist governmental structural.  ALL Democratic socialist nations have significant problems, but their problems pale in comparison to the horrific gap we currently have between the homeless and poor at one end, and billionaire row at the other.

The idea of the Constitution, at least in theory, is not to create a perfect government but rather, to create a "more perfect" government, that is, a better government where everyone has a fair shot at living a life of freedom, liberty and pursuit of happiness.  The idea is not to be satisfied by what we have but rather, to continue to improve it, which is why the framers allowed for amendment.  

The current United States reality is that a life of freedom, liberty and pursuit of happiness is becoming less and less possible for a significant majority of the American people; the middle class, the working class and the poor (combined = about 85-90% of the total population).

This is why we need someone like Bernie Sanders in power and, why we don't want anyone remotely like Trump, McConnell, Ryan, Blackburn, Graham or the rest of the lying-ass bastards who currently control the Republican Party.

posted on Monday, Feb 24, 2020 12:44:26 PM
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mike writes:
[To Richard Aberdeen]

Bernie won't be able to get much of what he is proposing passed through congress, hell Trump couldn't even repeal Obamacare and what Sanders is proposing is even more radical.

Add in the fact that the party in power tends to perform poorly in the mid terms and his policy proposals will be DOA.

Those democratic socialist structures you refer to that have a generous welfare state work well in countries with homogeneous cultures (the nordic countries) In countries like Canada or USA, not so much.

 

 

 

[ login to reply ] posted on Monday, Feb 24, 2020 01:37:35 PM
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Richard Aberdeen writes:
[To mike]

Yeah, but there is some hope.  Bernie has already said that he is going to shove Trump right back in the face of the Republicans and, start issuing all kinds of "executive orders", just like Trump has been allowed to do on their watch.  And, they can whine all they want but they won't have a political pot to piss in.  This is how Bernie plans to govern, to be the anti-Trump that we all need.  Bernie has already said as much.  

[ login to reply ] posted on Monday, Feb 24, 2020 01:53:36 PM