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Philip

Presentism fallacy

I notice that this fallacy doesn't seem to be on this site. It means judging things that happened in the past by present day moral standards, which in many cases isn't really fair. For instance, people often complain about things in old films or TV shows being racist or sexist or otherwise discriminatory, but they don't seem prepared to bear in mind that the films were made at a time when that sort of thing was considered funny.

asked on Monday, Jun 14, 2021 09:41:43 AM by Philip

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Mchasewalker writes:

The logical flaw here is that your argument implies that "changes in social culture and attitudes" either occur separately or indifferently from the "emergence of new information", when in fact it can be easily shown that the two are necessarily coeval.

I think this may qualify as an ambiguity fallacy as it is a phrase and not based upon a single misinterpreted word. (Equivocation Fallacy )

Changes in social culture and attitudes occur with the introduction of new ideas and information.

Therefore, any society or culture that is immune to new ideas or new information will find social change to be extremely difficult. 

For instance,  The Constitution originally defined African Americans as only 3/5 of a person. Obviously, with the introduction of new information (over some four hundred years), we realize this to be a preposterous claim. 

The other flaw I see in the OP is that it assumes that just because some people found a morally repugnant and obsolete idea to be funny it somehow excuses it from being racist or discriminatory. (It's possible to be both). Don Rickles could be both hysterically funny and shockingly racist at times, but with new information and changes in attitude, his comedy act drew more and more criticism and eventually grew out of favor. Minstrel singers were once considered to be a high note of musical and cultural entertainment, but as new information and ideas poured in we realized that it was at the expense of reducing, stereotyping, and dehumanizing whole groups of ethnic people.

posted on Monday, Jun 14, 2021 02:50:53 PM

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Answers

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Bo Bennett, PhD
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On this site, the primary name is historian’s fallacy .

answered on Monday, Jun 14, 2021 11:48:56 AM by Bo Bennett, PhD

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Philip writes:

It doesn't sound like that's quite what I mean. I was referring to changes in social culture and attitudes, not emergence of new information

posted on Monday, Jun 14, 2021 12:11:24 PM
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Bo Bennett, PhD writes:
[To Philip]

It is basically the same. Person X who made a decision to create a sitcom in the past that would be sexist today, is judged based on today's social norms (information person X did not have in the past). The changed social norms or attitudes would be the the same as new information, for the purpose of this fallacy. The flaw in reasoning is the same.

[ login to reply ] posted on Monday, Jun 14, 2021 02:11:57 PM
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TrappedPrior (RotE) writes:
[To Philip]

To echo what Dr Bo said, you've basically got two forms of the historian’s fallacytype 1 and type 2.

Type 1 is when you make factual claims using information the person did not have at the time.

Type 2 is when one reads present day morals into older time periods, without regard for the norms they held back then.

[ login to reply ] posted on Monday, Jun 14, 2021 02:22:41 PM
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TrappedPrior (RotE)
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Presentism is only really fallacious when it interferes with your ability to describe history; it doesn't really apply if one strictly admits that they are giving their opinion.

Here's an example of this going wrong:

Simon: Slavery has always been a disgusting practice. The way the slave workers were treated was inhumane. All societies that practiced it should have known better.

This is more like the historian’s fallacy where Simon tries to argue that slave societies 'should have known better', when their practice of slavery was based on norms and beliefs that we now know to be false.

Here, criticising slavery is fine - it was an abhorrent practice - but one has to bear in mind that people in the past did not see things that way, because they did not have the moral standards and information that we have. Thus, while one can disapprove of the slave-owning nature of many ancient societies, it is good to remember that this is simply how things were back in the day.

A lot of people criticise things from the past in order to prescribe future action (which is fine, and not a fallacy).

Here's an example of doing this right:

Louise: We now know that slavery is wrong. Southern Power is a film that glorifies slavery. Thus, it should be banned.

I would disagree with Louise, but this is a fair argument with a moral judgement. Rather than reading present morals into the past, she is projecting them into the future.

answered on Monday, Jun 14, 2021 02:20:28 PM by TrappedPrior (RotE)

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account no longer exists writes:

Jo:  That statue of Robert E Lee should be removed in Richmond because he waged a civil war in defense of pro- slavery states. The Richmond citizens that want to keep it should be ashamed for thinking Lee is a hero.

Kai: I'm shocked, Jo! You committed the historian's fallacy!

Jo:  Did not! Leaving the statue is a present practice that violates present values. I'm not judging past behavior, but the behavior of the current powers that be that want to continue honoring REL as a hero.

Well?

posted on Monday, Jun 14, 2021 03:13:21 PM
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TrappedPrior (RotE) writes:
[To Prof M]

No fallacies, just looks like a heated debate. 

[ login to reply ] posted on Monday, Jun 14, 2021 04:33:17 PM
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account no longer exists writes:

I agree with you, Rationalissimus of the Elenchus, of course. I posted the conversation only because many people (and even some cable news networks and podcasts) agree with "Kai" with respect to Confederate statues, buildings named after slave owners (even Thomas Jefferson), etc. You know..., the "cancel" thing. AAARGH!

posted on Monday, Jun 14, 2021 04:58:35 PM
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Monique Z
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I think the fallacy you're referring to is what C.S.Lewis called chronological snobbery, Which is the idea that the present is inherently better than the past. Like in your example, people will often say old TV and films are more racist than new films--the implication being that new films are better/less racist because they are contemporary (contemporary is assumed to = progress).

But many would argue that (1) racism is still alive and well dispite progress we've made over the decades; and (2) contemporary film and TV still portrays racism at times. For example, the TV show Kims Convenience (2011-2021) has been criticized for portraying Koreans in a bigoted manner.

On this website, the fallacy is described as appeal to novelty

answered on Tuesday, Jun 15, 2021 07:40:06 AM by Monique Z

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