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noblenutria@gmail.com

Fallacy of Division: Cops and Looters

George Floyd died 10 days ago.  I side with the SJWs that Floyds death was tragic and preventable.  I disagree, however with their terrible abuses of logic.  I want to give you a sample of the things I heard.

If you are against looting then you are for murderous police.

Peaceful protesting doesn't work because MLK was peaceful and they killed him.

Looting is a way to fight against racism

Looting is good because killing an innocent man is not as bad as looting.  

Groan...  If I had more time I would try to invent a new kind of social justice with all of the fallacies filtered out.  I want to focus on one fallacy in particular.  

"The whole system of policing in the USA is institutionally racist, therefore all individual cops are racist."  I think is the fallacy of division.  Wondered what you thought.  Individual cops and the whole system both can be racist but not in the same ways: An individual cop might utter an offensive racial epithet and a whole system cannot.  A whole system of policing might oppress a whole race but cannot utter an offensive racial epithet.  

It would be the fallacy of composition to say that if one cop is racist then the whole system is racist.  


asked on Tuesday, Jun 09, 2020 01:59:07 AM by noblenutria@gmail.com

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TrappedPrior (RotE) writes:

George Floyd died 10 days ago.  I side with the SJWs that Floyds death was tragic and preventable.  I disagree, however with their terrible abuses of logic.  I want to give you a sample of the things I heard.

The term 'SJW' is cringe and I would argue it only represents a fraction of a fraction of the left - even the pro-socjus left - but that's beside the point. You're right; on issues like this, emotions and passion easily get in the way of valid argument - and worse, said people believe that since their emotions are justified, their emotional  arguments  are justified as well, leading to a sharp decrease in cognitive empathy and acrimonious relations between people of opposing viewpoints.

posted on Tuesday, Jun 09, 2020 04:05:29 AM

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Answers

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TrappedPrior (RotE)
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If you are against looting then you are for murderous police.

A classic False Dilemma. This is a common emotional argument which attempts to bounce/prompt a person into agreeing with the speaker on pain of implicitly agreeing with something undesirable, thus getting them to bypass reason. One can be against looting, while supporting peaceful protest and reforms to policing, for example.

Peaceful protesting doesn't work because MLK was peaceful and they killed him.

Red Herring. Just because MLK was assassinated does not mean peaceful protest doesn't work; his death is a distracting piece of information. Firstly, MLK is not the only proponent of peaceful protest (Gandhi, who led India to independence in 1947, also supported it) and secondly, this argument overlooks some of his achievements (e.g. Civil Rights Act of 1964) and wider influence in society.

Looting is a way to fight against racism

This is more of an opinion than a fallacy, though it is close to Failure to Elucidate since 'fight against racism' is not elaborated upon - what type of racism is being fought by looting, and how? In addition, you could argue that it is a weak form of anti-racism, since it terrifies people (especially business owners who may have been looted), which may engender hostility to the looters and in turn their movement.

Looting is good because killing an innocent man is not as bad as looting.  

Relative Privation. Like the Red Herring, it's another fallacy of relevance because the moral status of looting does not depend on the moral status of killing an innocent man. It is possible for both to be counterproductive; the fact that they are not equally so does not make looting morally acceptable or even beneficial.

"The whole system of policing in the USA is institutionally racist, therefore all individual cops are racist."

Yes, this is a typical Fallacy of Division. Since the group X has negative trait Y, all members of the group have negative trait Y. This does not follow logically. Furthermore, if we examine the use of the term "racist" here, we see a clear example of Equivocation because we move from institutional racism (racial discrimination or racist attitudes perpetrated by an organisation, such as the police, as found in policing procedures for instance) to interpersonal racism (racial discrimination or racist attitudes perpetrated by people without the use of institutional power).

 

It would be the fallacy of composition to say that if one cop is racist then the whole system is racist.  

Also correct, as long as the assumption that it is just one bad cop holds true.

 

answered on Tuesday, Jun 09, 2020 04:20:35 AM by TrappedPrior (RotE)

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noblenutria@gmail.com writes:

Thank you for your thoughtful response.  Rational thought is a nice change after what has been going on in my facebook feed.  
 
I have some questions about your responses.  About my example for the fallacy of composition you said...

"Also correct, as long as the assumption that it is just one bad cop holds true."

If there were 100 cops at a police station and 99 were racist and one was not then wouldn't this mean that the whole station is not racist because 1 cop is not racist?  I am asking because your response implies that only 1 racist cop means a fallacy but two or more racist cops would mean that the whole system is racist.  

I had a question too about your response to my example of the fallacy of division.  You said that equivocation is part of my example too.  Then I wondered if the equivocation was removed would it still be a fallacy of division.  How could I formulate this example so that it is a fallacy of division but not equivocation?  Maybe if I didn't mention interpersonal racism.  

The system is institutionally racist
Therefore this individual cop is institutionally racist.  



posted on Wednesday, Jun 10, 2020 01:40:14 AM
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Michael Hurst writes:

[To Jacob]

"If there were 100 cops at a police station and 99 were racist and one was not then wouldn't this mean that the whole station is not racist because 1 cop is not racist?"

Such a situation would be a strong and logical argument that racism is not systemic in that department. The presence of one counter-example does not refute the argument - that would be a fallacy fallacy . It would be illogical to assume that the personnel department deliberately sought and found 99 cops based on their racist attitudes, and failed in one case.

On the other hand, one racist cop would also not argue that the system is racist, that would be a composition fallacy. But that is not the basis for the charge of systemic racism, as I explain in my full answer.

[ login to reply ] posted on Friday, Jun 12, 2020 06:41:23 PM
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Michael Hurst writes:

"It would be the fallacy of composition to say that if one cop is racist then the whole system is racist ." That is correct, on its face. But that is not the argument. The argument is that the system is racist, and that Floyd's murder is just one example. The argument is made on the evidence of multiple similar atrocities committed over a long period of time, across many different police departments and jurisdictions. It is based on strong and irrefutable statistics that show that Blacks (for one example), are many times more likely than Whites to be stopped for minor or even no infractions, many times more likely to be arrested for similar crimes as Whites, many times more likely to be convicted of similar crimes as Whites, and face much longer sentences than Whites convicted of the same crimes. It is based on many videos showing Blacks being brutalized in their contacts with police, much more violently than for White suspects. It is based on a long history of such disparities, and it is just now beginning to gain understanding in the White community as the presence of cell phones has made the atrocities visible to previously unengaged people. The argument is made based on the fact that such discrimination meets a legal definition called "pattern and practice", based on the Double Standards logical fallacy applied to similarly situated individuals.

posted on Friday, Jun 12, 2020 06:26:28 PM
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skips777 writes:
[To Michael Hurst]

You just turned a fallacy question into a debate about "statistics". Whether those stats are real or not, your response itself could be 2 or 3 more "is it a fallacy" questions...lol 

[ login to reply ] posted on Thursday, Jul 30, 2020 06:07:09 AM
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Night
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SJW is a loaded term that's generally used to stereotype people advocating for various sociopolitical issues as militant and irrational. It's not really the name of a particular movement or anything, so it's better to just go by individual arguments without generalizing. Those look like paraphrases of paraphrases of arguments that aren't quite the same as they were originally. The original arguments aren't necessarily what you're making them out to be.

 

If you are against looting then you are for murderous police.

This is in the context of the discussions attempting to discredit the protests due to the looting. The statement as presented is fallacious but it could be an out of context distortion of the argument that discrediting the protests because of the looting is validating the police's suppression of said protests.

 

 

Peaceful protesting doesn't work because MLK was peaceful and they killed him.

This one is missing the context that explains how protests working is defined. It seems to be derived from responses to people citing MLK's peaceful protests as an example of how to protest "correctly" to avoid getting assaulted by police, in which case protests working is defined as not getting assaulted by the police for protesting despite doing so being a human rights violation.

 

Looting is a way to fight against racism

I'm pretty sure that's meant to be a claim that looting is a valid tactic in protests rather than to fight racism specifically. It's a claim without its supporting arguments, which is what would need to be addressed.

 

Looting is good because killing an innocent man is not as bad as looting.

That one is fallacious due to the morality of looting being based on murder being worse. It would also be fallacious to claim that anyone who says that killing an innocent man is worse is claiming that looting is good, as that's not what they actually said. The actual morality of looting is debatable.

 

The whole system of policing in the USA is institutionally racist, therefore all individual cops are racist.

The idea that all cops are racist is generally argued in the context that the ones who aren't are either fired by their peers for doing the right thing or resign because they don't condone those actions. Those people are arguing that remaining within a racist institution means being complicit in the racism perpetuated by that institution, hence "all cops are racist". A racist institution needs to be run by people who enforce it and obstruct attempts to address that institutional racism. The core argument to debate here is whether or not being part of a racist institution is inherently racist and why.

 

Overall those arguments seem to be missing context that alters what's being claimed from what it was originally. While assessing the fallacies in the versions presented is worthwhile, I felt it was important to examine the possible distortions of those points and what they may have originally been.

answered on Sunday, Jul 26, 2020 05:52:36 AM by Night

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