Question

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Doug Glaass

Some sort of conclusion fallacy or just a non-sequitur

The healthcare system is a mess. Wait times are horrible. Many common treatments don't have a good evidence base. Overtreatment too common. Private actors (including pharmaceutical companies) can have perverse influence. Etc.

None of this makes alternative medicine effective.

 

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asked on Thursday, Dec 14, 2023 01:20:39 PM by Doug Glaass

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Answers

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Dr. Richard
3

It looks like a group of statements, proclamations, without any reasoning from one to another and none intended. You could add the sky is blue today, and any other statement. It is still meaningless.

answered on Friday, Dec 15, 2023 09:48:05 AM by Dr. Richard

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Mr. Wednesday
2

This isn't a fallacious statement. The person is stating that the administrative issues with the healthcare system have no effect on the effectiveness of alternative medicine. A less politically charged equivalent would be something like "I can't find a good mechanic to work on my Audi, but that doesn't make your Volkswagen go any faster."

If someone was to make the opposite claim, though, that using issues with the healthcare system rather than experimental data to prove the effectiveness of alternative medicine, that would be a nonsequitor.

answered on Thursday, Dec 14, 2023 01:48:19 PM by Mr. Wednesday

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TrappedPrior (RotE) writes:

Yeah, the bot seems to have gotten this one wrong. The tweet isn't a non-sequitur at all; Caulfield is responding to the suggestion that the woes of the medical industry implicitly support the adoption of alternative medicine (and he quite rightly rubbishes that suggestion!)

Edit: Or not. I re-read its comment and it's actually saying that what Caulfield is responding to is the non-sequitur, not the tweet itself. I feel dumb...

posted on Thursday, Dec 14, 2023 02:37:22 PM
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Doug Glaass writes:

This is not at all what he's implying lol

 

But now I know what to expect here.

posted on Friday, Dec 15, 2023 04:03:45 PM
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AI Fallacy Master
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While this argument might seem to have tripped and fallen down a logical staircase, it's actually a good example of a non-sequitur fallacy. It's like saying, "My car is a real trash heap. It's always breaking down, the gas mileage is terrible, and the air conditioning only works when it's below zero outside. I guess I should really start riding my pet llama to work." Just because mainstream healthcare has its problems doesn't automatically mean alternative medicine works. After all, just because your car is a lemon doesn't mean your llama appreciates rush hour traffic any more than you do.
answered on Thursday, Dec 14, 2023 01:20:55 PM by AI Fallacy Master

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Jack
1

The guy is merely pointing out that due to current issues seen within the healthcare system does not mean that altertantive medicine is any more effective. 

“Problems in medicine do not mean that homeopathic sugar pills work; just because there are problems with aircraft design, that doesn't mean that magic carpets really fly.”

― Ben Goldacre, Bad Pharma: How Drug Companies Mislead Doctors and Harm Patients

answered on Sunday, Dec 17, 2023 10:46:45 AM by Jack

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Alan Wells
1

The question seems to imply that a "conclusion fallacy" (formal fallacy) is somehow totally different than a "non-sequitur."

The terms "non-sequitur" and “formal fallacy” are sometimes used interchangeably because many people consider all formal fallacies to be non-sequitur. This brings up the issue of what the official authority is for defining fallacies. What organization enforces compliance with the definitions of logical fallacies? Stating that many people consider all formal fallacies to be non-sequitur fallacies doesn't make it true, that would be the Ad populum fallacy which claims that something is true simply because a large number of people believe it.

A non-sequitur fails (fallacy) to establish a logical connection between the premise and the conclusion. If it fails, then it's a fallacy.

People often use the word "logic" to describe an attempt at logic, and most attempts at logic completely fail. Random and meaningless statements that have no causal relationship might be incorrectly referred to as "logic" when they're actually an illogical communication. An attempt at logic is not necessarily logic. The original post is a communication . It's not even an explanation , because the word explanation implies valid logic.

A fallacy is a failure. I ask the question, "Is there a failure in the communication?" If there is a failure, then there is a fallacy. And if there is a fallacy, then call it a fallacy. The conclusion in the post is not a consequence of the previous statements. The conclusion fails to follow logically from the premises. (Non-Sequitur) If there is a failure, then there is a fallacy.

The reason why some people might think that there is no fallacy is because the premises don't disprove the conclusion. But don't confuse a failure to disprove the conclusion with a valid conclusion. It's not the same thing.

answered on Friday, Dec 15, 2023 02:15:13 PM by Alan Wells

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Bo Bennett, PhD
1

No fallacy that I can see. In fact, it is a strong argument but ONLY IF one is providing reasons that alternative medicine is effective is because traditional medicine is problematic.

answered on Friday, Dec 15, 2023 09:52:14 AM by Bo Bennett, PhD

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Doug Glaass writes:

Reading some of these replies I'm realizing it's a strawman on top of failed logic.

No, the failure of traditional medicine is not evidence for alternative medicines being effective. What seems to be being missed is that nor is it evidence for it not being effective. It is only evidently of its (TM) failure.

The straw man is that nobody is making the argument that he is attempting to refute with his final statement.  Literally nobody has ever said "traditional medicine is failing that must mean that alternative medicine works much better."

posted on Friday, Dec 15, 2023 04:13:06 PM
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Mr. Wednesday writes:
[To Doug Glaass]

I would be careful with the phrase "literally no one." I've seen some profoundly bad arguments about divisive topics on social media. That said, I can't say I've seen anyone directly assert that the issues with modern medicine make alternative medicine any better. What I do tend to see, though, is proponents of alternative medicine who, when confronted with the idea that it lacks evidence for its effectiveness, will point to the issues with modern medicine in an attempt to deflect or downplay them.

[ login to reply ] posted on Sunday, Dec 17, 2023 01:48:05 PM
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TrappedPrior (RotE) writes:
[To Mr. Wednesday]

This is probably what Caulfield is trying to address. Proponents of alternative medicine will often use failures in the medical industry to implicitly promote their products. Even if they don't explicitly say "the healthcare industry is flawed, therefore alt med works", the intent can be inferred.

[ login to reply ] posted on Monday, Dec 18, 2023 07:31:09 PM