Question

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Jakykong

Demanding impossible evidence?

I am in a debate right now, and the argument has taken the following form:

Me: "Claim X; source [1],[2],[3]"
Them: "You can post all the sources you want, I will believe X when you do Y(impossible thing)."

I believe there is an argument from ignorance in dismissing the sources without addressing them. However there seems to be another fallacy going on here where someone demands a specific piece of evidence that (for reasons unrelated to the claim at hand) is impossible to provide.

In the specific conversation, X was "Fukushima's contaminated water is generally safe", and Y was "I'll believe it when you swim in the pool", which is impossible because I'm not in Japan and wouldn't be authorized to get that close, not because the water is unsafe.

Can someone help identify this fallacy?

asked on Tuesday, Oct 20, 2020 09:52:40 AM by Jakykong

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richard smith writes:

I seems like they know they cannot discredit or do not want to accept the source so they try to discredit the person giving the source.

 red herring, ad hominem, Cognitive dissonance

posted on Wednesday, Oct 21, 2020 12:35:06 PM

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Answers

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Bo Bennett, PhD
3

Similar questions have been posted in the past. Short answer, there is no ideal matching fallacy (I can think of), it is a combination of cognitive biases and perhaps some denialism that results in people rejecting adequate/reasonable evidence. It is an overall inability to properly evaluate evidence.

However, I have added this to my list because I do think it might be common enough to justify a fallacy (perhaps Appeal to Unreasonable Standard). I would broaden the fallacy to address unreasonable standards, not just impossible, because I would not want to deal with the philosophical issues surrounding impossibility.

answered on Tuesday, Oct 20, 2020 10:35:55 AM by Bo Bennett, PhD

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mchasewalker
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Traveling to Japan is hardly an impossibility or even that unreasonable.

Swimming in Fukushima's contaminated water might be prohibited, but certainly not impossible. 

People travel to Japan frequently, but it is not necessary to do so to validate or discredit your claim.

The fact is there are much more precise scientific means for measuring the safety of Fukushima's waters other than actually swimming in it. 

Discrediting your claim by challenging you to swim there is just a weak argument and red Herring, It doesn't really prove or discredit anything even if you were able to pull it off.

Now, saying: "I'll believe something when pigs fly" would definitely be an appeal to the impossible.

 

answered on Wednesday, Oct 21, 2020 12:00:57 PM by mchasewalker

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Bo Bennett, PhD writes:

Two great points here: 1) evidence demanded is not impossible and 2) what is demanded wouldn't reasonably be considered "evidence" for the actual claim.

posted on Wednesday, Oct 21, 2020 12:17:04 PM
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Jakykong writes:

Interesting, I didn't think it was a red herring because the evidence they were demanding was related to the claim (even if I, too, consider swimming in Fukushima's reactor pools to be weak evidence of safety). 

I like Dr. Bennett's distinction above about an unreasonable demand, as opposed to impossible , since as you mentioned it isn't impossible, but certainly given that it's prohibited, it does seem unreasonable. (In particular because it's not that anyone swims in the water, but rather that I do.)

posted on Wednesday, Oct 21, 2020 10:40:48 PM
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mchasewalker writes:

The claim is there is significant scientific evidence that Fukushima's waters are "generally" safe. One presumes that means that the radiation levels are sufficiently low as not to present any immediate harm. 

Likewise, every year a few visitors to Georgia State's pristine lakes and river systems are infected with Necrotizing fasciitis. Swimming in them is generally safe, but not altogether without significant danger. 

The respondent argues evidence be damned, he would only be convinced if his opponent actually bathed in Fukushima's waters. That's the deception.

His argument implies that determining lethal or harmless radiation levels and "general safety" of Fukushima's waters can be measured by his opponent physically swimming in it. Which is utter nonsense. This sleight of hand redirect leads us nowhere closer to the truth, and thus remains a big, stinking, flopping red herring. 

posted on Thursday, Oct 22, 2020 12:04:04 PM
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Kuda
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Uhm, I think this is very good and it depends a lot on the reasons why they don't want to accept the sources you offer them. Do they know that the sources in Fukushima are not safe because of the testimonies of the people who live there or because of some source further away from the origin? If it is the former, then they have good reasons not to believe in the sources you offer them, if it is the latter, then they simply do not have good reasons to reject the sources you offer them. Certainly the second is a bias against trusting the media, perhaps it is a conspiracy or something like that.

answered on Wednesday, Oct 21, 2020 12:14:58 PM by Kuda

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Jakykong writes:

I elided the vast majority of the conversation to focus on what I think is relevant to my question. However, it's not removing much: suffice it to say, they did not offer any justification for rejecting my sources (or, for that matter, any other part of the argument I was making using those sources). When I asked specifically about this, they stated they wouldn't read them until I "put my money where my mouth is" by swimming at Fukushima. 

Maybe they had good reasons for rejecting my sources or argument, but they didn't offer them to me, so I could only speculate. 

posted on Wednesday, Oct 21, 2020 10:50:24 PM
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Dr. Richard
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f you presented only sources, then you committed the fallacy of the Appeal to Authority.

If you presented facts and used the named sources as the origin of your facts, then “Them” can examine and challenge the facts and the underlying method of concluding they are facts.  

Let’s take a look at the text of what you have: “You can post all the sources you want, I will believe X when you do Y.” This statement is not unreasonable. Therefore, the discussion then revolves around the reasonableness of Y. For example, he might have said,  “You can post all the sources you want, I will believe X when you do Y (present evidence to establish the conclusion).” 

You do not present the issue of certainty here, but I find it useful to keep in mind our goal is to establish “epistemological certainty,” not “absolute certainty.” 

answered on Wednesday, Oct 21, 2020 01:46:07 PM by Dr. Richard

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Istvan writes:

Sometimes the evidence exists, but cannot be dug up on a short notice, and should not be required.

Lets say you are sitting in a bus stop, someone argues with you about the Earth. You say the earth is round and revolves around the sun. The other guys might say you have to prove it. How do you provide evidence to well known facts when sitting in a bus stop?

Other example is you just got a new job at a company, sitting on a project meeting, someone proposes to do an engineering process on a new device, that they used to do on old obsolete devices. Then you say we cannot do that because XYZ will happen. They dont believe you, they demand proof of this XYZ happening, they never heard of it. Since you worked at other companies before where XYZ prevention strategies were solidified and applied daily by multiple engineers, you read books about it, you attended conferences on it 10 years ago where multiples of your competitors discussed their similar XYZ prevention strategies, it is a routine. Now at the new company they want you to dig up the conference papers (that you may only have on your personal laptop at home, cannot get it and reread it on this meeting) and the old trial runs you did with your former colleagues 10 years ago (that you don't have access to) to prove it, otherwise the team is full steam ahead and ignoring alleged XYZ. The meeting concludes to go full steam ahead, and note in the minutes that you interfered with the experts by talking about made up stuff. This actually happened to me multiple times.

What is causing it, is the listener to your claim being unexpectedly uneducated. Or dealing with fake experts. A fake expert is someone with less than average knowledge, who was promoted to being lead engineers simply through length of service, but claim to "know everything there is worth knowing in the field". The opposite of an open mind.

posted on Sunday, Aug 14, 2022 02:49:18 PM
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Dr. Richard writes:
[To Istvan]

I have to admit I do not understand your point. 

[ login to reply ] posted on Sunday, Aug 14, 2022 03:02:33 PM