Both a complex question fallacy, and a loaded question fallacy are both questions. But, what if its a loaded/complex statement? I see loaded statements more often than loaded questions. I.e a presupposition built into the statement or into the claim.
Still seems fallacious to me whether its a question, statement or claim.
asked on Monday, Aug 03, 2020 03:25:36 PM by Jason Mathias
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If it's reasonable to assume something given context, or you're making a factually true statement, there's no fallacy.
However, often people assume their own (contentious) conclusions when making an argument, leading to a loaded statement. This is best described by the fallacy of Begging the Question.
answered on Monday, Aug 03, 2020 04:34:41 PM by TrappedPrior (RotE)
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Jason Mathias writes:
I will give you an example to make it more clear.
Americans Front Line Doctors put out misinformation about covid-19 that got shared on Facebook, Twitter and Youtube. So, according to the social medias policy they deleted them as dangerous fake news.
When discussing this, someone comments the following statement/ claim:
"Facts are bad, so censor them."
Here, his claim or statement has a presupposition built into it that the so called misinformation is actually facts and not actually misinformation.
posted on Monday, Aug 03, 2020 05:33:09 PM
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TrappedPrior (RotE)writes: [To Jason Mathias ]
Looks more like a sarcastic comment than a serious argument.
[ login to reply ] posted on Monday, Aug 03, 2020 06:42:04 PM
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Jason Mathias writes:
[To Rationalissimo]
No, its a serious argument. This person thinks those doctors are telling the truth and thinks fact checkers are misinformation because they are a part of the deep state, and that social media is censoring information because they are trying to hide the truth.
There should be an appeal to sarcasm fallacy, because fallacious arguments sneaks in through humor and sarcasm.
Also, why do they call it, "begging the question" when its not a question? That has always confused me.
[ login to reply ] posted on Monday, Aug 03, 2020 07:42:17 PM
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TrappedPrior (RotE)writes: [To Jason Mathias ]
No, its a serious argument. This person thinks those doctors are telling the truth and thinks fact checkers are misinformation because they are a part of the deep state, and that social media is censoring information because they are trying to hide the truth.
Precisely. The "facts are bad, censor them" comment is sarcastic. The person doesn't really think what they perceive to be facts should be censored.
There should be an appeal to sarcasm fallacy, because fallacious arguments sneaks in through humor and sarcasm.
The use of sarcasm isn't fallacious; if sarcastic arguments contained a fallacy they could probably be covered by something from Bo's library.
Also, why do they call it, "begging the question" when its not a question? That has always confused me.
You assume your conclusion and never ask if it is true, which "begs" the important question - "am I right?"
[ login to reply ] posted on Tuesday, Aug 04, 2020 06:34:43 AM
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Jason Mathias writes: [To Rationalissimo]
"Precisely. The "facts are bad, censor them" comment is sarcastic. The person doesn't really think what they perceive to be facts should be censored."
But they aren't facts, and his claim presupposes that they are facts. So, doesn't that make it loaded?
[ login to reply ] posted on Tuesday, Aug 04, 2020 06:09:59 PM
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Dr. Richardwrites: [To Rationalissimo]
Rationalsimo is correct. This is a comment, not an answer.
[ login to reply ] posted on Tuesday, Aug 04, 2020 11:11:24 AM
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Bo Bennett, PhDwrites: [To Jason Mathias ]
"Facts are bad, so censor them."
Clear sarcasm, but we can translate this to
p1. These doctors are posting facts. p2. Facts shouldn't be censored. C. Therefore, social media should not sensor these doctors' posts.
I really see no question begging or complex question fallacy, just an argument with a questionable premise.
[ login to reply ] posted on Tuesday, Aug 04, 2020 07:42:04 AM
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Jason Mathias writes:
[To Bo Bennett, PhD]
But the first premise presupposes that they are facts, when they are not facts. So, isn't that loaded?
[ login to reply ] posted on Tuesday, Aug 04, 2020 06:11:15 PM
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Bo Bennett, PhDwrites: [To Jason Mathias ]
All claims presuppose.
[ login to reply ] posted on Tuesday, Aug 04, 2020 08:46:13 PM
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Jason Mathias writes: [To Bo Bennett, PhD]
"Exception: Some assumptions that are universally accepted could pass as not being fallacious."
The assumption that what these doctors said is fact, is not universally accepted.
"Description: A question that has a presupposition built in,"
Doesn't his statement have a presupposition built in? That being that what the propaganda doctors said is fact?
[ login to reply ] posted on Tuesday, Aug 04, 2020 09:07:16 PM
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Bo Bennett, PhDwrites: [To Jason Mathias ]
It is not an assumption, however; it is a claim. I was partially being facetious when wrote that all claims have presuppositions. There is technically no "pre" supposing, no assuming... it is an outright claim, in real time. Consider the following:
[claim] These doctors are posting facts. [presupposition/assumption] The facts that these doctors are posting [now the claim] are helpful.
Let use the argument to the consequences here. If we were to grant that a statement such as "These doctors are posting facts," is a fallacy, then to be consistent, we would need to do the same for every claim. Every claim people make "assumes" the truth of the claim; therefore, everyone is fallacious who makes a claim. Or like the new world we live in, 2+2=4 only because we presuppose the oppressive western ways of knowing things; therefore, we are fallacious.
Remember what fallacies are at their core: errors in reasoning, not facts . If someone makes a claim that is factually incorrect, it is an error, but not a fallacy.
[ login to reply ] posted on Wednesday, Aug 05, 2020 06:36:01 AM
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Jason Mathias writes: [To Bo Bennett, PhD]
You're right, its a false claim.
[ login to reply ] posted on Thursday, Aug 06, 2020 06:40:41 PM
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