Question

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Alex Hosking

Presenting an impossible condition.

I was in a disagreement with someone about speed limits, I went into great detail about what's been shown to exacerbates speed limit-non compliance, as in what leads to people paying less attention to speed limits as in arbitrary placing of boundaries etc, shared speed and compliance data and also present evidence from Charles Marohn about the phycology of driving explaining that a lot of the non-compliance isn't down to wilful disobedience.

None of that seemed to matter to the person I was debating because I needed to explain what "physical force" was making people speed or else I could seemingly be dismissed.

Obviously there isn't one, I never claimed there was, he seems to have presented an impossible criterion, in order to dismiss everything I've said.

Another example would be Kent Hovind's $250,000 reward for "proof of evolution" he has likely given an impossible criterion otherwise Darwin's family would be able to claim it.

asked on Saturday, Nov 27, 2021 09:22:14 PM by Alex Hosking

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Answers

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Bo Bennett, PhD
2

I can see this in an argument presented at an argument from ignorance . For example,

Kent: Can you present proof X for evolution?

Darwin: No.

Kent: Therefore, evolution is not true (and creationism is).

There are actually three reasoning errors here:

  1. The impossible/irrelevant condition. As you point out, asking someone for impossible evidence is often a deflection. We don't need a sample of the moon's core to know that it's almost certainly not made of green cheese.
  2. The argument from ignorance . Even if the request for proof was reasonable, being unable to provide it doesn't mean the claim is false.
  3. The false dilemma . The claim that if your explanation is wrong, then mine must be right, when in fact, there could be other candidate explanations.

Since there is no real argument presented, I wouldn't call a fallacy. I wouldn't even claim their suggested condition is "impossible," because that can lead you down a rabbit hole. I would ask him to explain why "physical force" is the only thing that matters in this case. Put the burden of proof in his hands. Then by analogy, ask what "physical forces" make people do other things like murder, rob banks, etc. Through a reductio, you may be able to demonstrate that his request is, at the very least, unreasonable.

answered on Sunday, Nov 28, 2021 07:04:21 AM by Bo Bennett, PhD

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Alex Hosking writes:

Only issue there was my main point was that speeding (on roads where the non-compliance rate is very high) is materially different breaking laws like robbery and murder etc. 

posted on Sunday, Nov 28, 2021 08:08:31 AM
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Bo Bennett, PhD writes:
[To Alex Hosking]

Sure. But if he can explain the concept of a "physical force" that allegedly is responsible for people breaking the law, then you can use that for the reductio. If "breaking the law" isn't the main point but something else like following rules, you can come up with some other examples.

[ login to reply ] posted on Sunday, Nov 28, 2021 08:11:09 AM
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Gnostic Mom writes:
[To Alex Hosking]

You are alluding to speed here as the actual goal.  In this case, they are speeding because that's the whole point.  But still there is no physical driving force compelling them to speed.  It's an urge, just like the urge some people have to rock climb or sky dive.  Is there a physical  force compelling them to do those things?  If there IS, it could be claimed it's the adrenaline rush.  And people can become addicted to it.  But there's no Newtonian force making anybody speed.  Explaining why people break laws can probably be better explained by medical experts rather than physicists.  But if your friend needs a physical force to explain speeding, tell him it's an addiction to the reward of the adrenaline rush. 

[ login to reply ] posted on Monday, Nov 29, 2021 08:37:20 AM
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Alex Hosking writes:

Like this? Why are you touching your face, what physical force is making you touch your face!?

posted on Sunday, Nov 28, 2021 07:59:27 PM
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Gnostic Mom
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Obviously the physical force "making" them speed is additional foot pressure on the accelerator.  To be boring and unimaginative, I would suggest the simple cause of that additional foot pressure is usually just driver inattentiveness, nothing mysterious or deeply psychological about it.  I don't think anyone should try to make a big philosophical issue out of it.  People speed because they aren't paying attention.  To a certain extent, driving is a boring, rote activity, especially highway driving.  Barring unusual circumstances (accidents or severe weather etc) it can be done fairly efficiently without much concentration.  And so the foot pressure on the pedal can increase without a driver being aware of it.  Maybe they should use their cruise control. 

answered on Sunday, Nov 28, 2021 08:58:41 AM by Gnostic Mom

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Dr. Richard writes:

While I think you are correct as far as you go, your comment applies to "normal" people. I sure see a lot of "macho" drivers who speed --- usually in cars with extra loud exhaust, erratic driving, tailgating, etc.

posted on Sunday, Nov 28, 2021 10:13:02 AM
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Alex Hosking writes:

Not really wanting to get into this here,  not sure it can be put down to inattentiveness because my point was where speed limits are higher, compliance was consistently higher but actual speeds weren't, which is counter to very popular belief.  It would be difficult to conclude that people were attentive on some roads but not on others by coincidence.
No matter how much data I had to back this up didn't seem to make a difference to the other person because where the compliance was lower, everyone speeding was in the wrong therefore my point could be dismissed. I know that's appeal to the law . You could make up a law that says you must sit on a chair all day and eat milk, bread, and pine needles for sustenance...
He couldn't disregard my data, but I need to provide a " physical force " or I could be dismissed.
The video by Charles Marohn linked to above explains about the difference between the posted speed limit and the one implied by the road's design.

posted on Sunday, Nov 28, 2021 07:49:20 PM