Question

...
noblenutria@gmail.com

If I die then I have a weak immune system

I have friend who was diagnosed with leukemia.  He has a 25 percent chance of living even with the chemo.  He has refused to take the chemo.  He said that even if chemo had a 100 percent chance of curing him he would still not take it.  He believes what many homeopathic-type people believe: that a healthy person can fend off any disease, even aggressive cancers, if they have a strong immune system.  

 

I could simplify one of his arguments as follows...

If I have a strong immune system then I beat the cancer.  If I have a weak immune system then I die. This must be a specific fallacy.  

 He, of course, believes that his immune system is weak because of unspecified toxins and if the toxins are removed then his immune system will improve and then he might beat back the cancer. 

I tried to explain to him to no avail that humans are mortal and many diseases kill you no matter the strength of your immune system.  

asked on Sunday, Sep 20, 2020 01:05:39 AM by noblenutria@gmail.com

Top Categories Suggested by Community

Comments

Want to get notified of all questions as they are asked? Update your mail preferences and turn on "Instant Notification."

Like the Site? You'll Love the Book!

This book is a crash course, meant to catapult you into a world where you start to see things how they really are, not how you think they are.  The focus of this book is on logical fallacies, which loosely defined, are simply errors in reasoning.  With the reading of each page, you can make significant improvements in the way you reason and make decisions.

Get 20% off this book and all Bo's books*. Use the promotion code: websiteusers

* This is for the author's bookstore only. Applies to autographed hardcover, audiobook, and ebook.

Get the Book

Answers

...
Bo Bennett, PhD
2

The advice you give your friend could be literally life-saving. I would buy the book, The Skeptic's Guide to the Universe, and flag the chapter on homeopathy for him. Highlight the key parts, then FedEx him the book (assuming not local). Beg him to read the section carefully and ask you any questions.

Honestly, I am not sure how wrong he is about his immune system claim. People do beat cancer and some of the other bad diseases without treatment, likely (but not certainly) due to the immune system (see https://www.cancer.gov/about-cancer/treatment/types/immunotherapy - although a treatment, it is about the immune system). The problem is all the pseudoscience surrounding how to have a strong immune system. Homeopathy is certainly a load of bunk, which means, his belief that he is building a strong immune system when he is actually not almost certainly will kill him.

If I have a strong immune system then I beat the cancer.  If I have a weak immune system then I die. 

These are just two claims, nothing more. The claims are problematic because it is not as simple as "strong" and "weak" resulting in life or death. Granted, this is outside my area of expertise, but from what I understand one's immune system can be ideal at fighting off some diseases but not others. In other words, it can be generally very strong, but it is no match for an aggressive leukemia. Also, a weak immune system can be compensated for by modern medicine and therapies, so the claim "if I have a weak immune system then I die" is a statement of probability, strongly moderated by if the person refuses medical treatment or not.

Of course, we are not the best people to educate him on the pros and cons of the different treatments for leukemia. Perhaps the best thing you can do for your friend is to get him to simply talk to a oncologist. This might be pointless if he believes that western medicine is evil and the oncologist is part of the "scam," thus the aforementioned book would be a good precursor to the consultation.

answered on Sunday, Sep 20, 2020 07:07:27 AM by Bo Bennett, PhD

Bo Bennett, PhD Suggested These Categories

Comments

...
1
noblenutria@gmail.com writes:

You know what is spooky.  I am reading The Skeptics Guide to the Universe right now.  I mean, I was before you mentioned it and last night I sent him some passages from the homeopathy section.  Clearly evidence of psychic powers.  

What if I formulated the problem like Affirming the Consequent?

If I have a weak immune system then I die.  He died therefore he had a weak immune system.  

Having a weak immune system can lead to death but it is not the not way to lead to death.  A person could eat the healthiest food in the world and exercise right and still be genetically predetermined to get cancer.  

There is a naturalistic fallacy

“I don’t want chemo because it a unnatural.”  There are unstated premises.  It’s unnatural therefore immoral.  It’s unnatural and therefore harmful.  He said he didn’t believe in “putting a poison in his body to heal himself”.  I am sure he sees chemo as toxins and that is what he believes caused his cancer in the first place.  That is in distributed middle.  

There are toxins in my body causing cancer

There are toxins in chemo

Therefore the toxins which cause cancer and the toxins which fight cancer are the same.  The “toxins” causing his cancer are his own cells and DNA.  

Appeal to Nature

Chemo is unnatural and Detoxs are natural so the detox is preferable and superior.  

This is why I don’t like homeopathic medicine.  It erodes confidence in science and in modern medicine.  Homeopathy kills people by turning them into nature worshipping zealots.   It puts thoughts in people’s heads that many forms of conventional medicine are unnatural and therefore bad.  You know what is natural?  Death...   Maybe living to 90 in unnatural.  Maybe more people would take their chemo if it was marketed as if it were natural.  

Lo and behold, I just looked up the ingredients of a chemo drug called Vincristine.  It is derived from plant alkaloids.  It’s a free range, vegan, organic, and all natural cure after all.  

 

 

 

posted on Sunday, Sep 20, 2020 11:37:45 AM
...
0
Dr. Richard writes:

I doubt providing facts to your friend will change his mind, and may even cause him to strengthen his erroneous beliefs due to "backfire." 

In my experience, people never change their beliefs by being punched in the head with facts. The reason is most people believe what they believe because they want to believe it. Facts are not important. Michael Shermer made this addition Cognitive Dissonance Theory in his book, “Why People Believe Weird Things.”

Peter Boghossian pointed out how to change a person’s belief. He said, to be successful, the person must reconsider how they arrived at the belief under discussion. If your goal is to change his mind, as distinct from pontificating (which is better done in front of a mirror), then you need to get him thinking about how he arrived at the belief.  

Instead of people holding a belief because they think they should hold that belief, you claim to hold a belief and wish you could stop believing—if only they could show you the error of your ways. This plays well with the homeopathic group. You want to get them thinking about the process to the conclusion, and not thinking about the conclusion itself. 

All of this deals with the Fallacy of Subjectivism. Subjectivism is not only a way of adopting conclusions on subjective grounds, but also — and probably more often — a way of evading the grounds. Some people have perfected the skill of ignoring what they don’t want to see, and most of us indulge this habit from time-to-time. Heuristics are hell. If I put the statement into a proposition, it takes the form: “I don't want to accept p, therefore p isn’t true.” That’s pure subjectivism.

 

posted on Monday, Sep 21, 2020 11:21:48 AM
...
Dr. Richard
0

This is a restatement of the same subjectivist fallacy we discussed a couple days ago at www.logicallyfallacious.c. . .

answered on Sunday, Sep 20, 2020 12:42:56 PM by Dr. Richard

Dr. Richard Suggested These Categories

Comments