Question

...
R. K. Borill

Does the concept of the Triune God violate the Law of Identity and the Law of Non-Contradiction?

This is a question that does not really move outside of theology, and get subjected to logic and critical thinking. The idea is that there are three persons in the one God.

The big question is : does each of these persons have a unique identity?

By way of analogy, look at the actor Harrison Ford. He has a unique identity, and let's say this identity is determined by a combination of his fingerprints and his DNA. He plays Indiana Jones, Han Solo, and Jack Ryan, in different films.

These characters are all different in appearance and actions, but they all have a SINGLE identity, which is Harrison Ford.

The Triune God doctrine posits that each person has a UNIQUE identity.

We can ignore (for the moment) the split in belief of those who believe that God is the Father and Jesus is the Son, and those who believe that Jesus IS God (albeit in a different format).

So, does the concept of the Triune God violate the Law of Identity and the Law of Non-Contradiction?

asked on Thursday, May 20, 2021 10:03:46 AM by R. K. Borill

Top Categories Suggested by Community

Comments

...
0
R. K. Borill writes:

Why do you assume that theology and logic/critical thinking are mutually exclusive?   Since the Son of God is the logos (logic) of God ( John 1:1),  incompatibility with theology is impossible. 

posted on Thursday, May 20, 2021 10:34:03 AM
...
1
Monique Z writes:
[To R. K. Borill]

Since much of theology is the study of gods, and all gods and doctrines are man-made,  its no surprise that there are contradictions along the way. Also, the majority of arguments for the existence of God are flawed,  and often commit logical fallacies.

[ login to reply ] posted on Friday, May 21, 2021 08:36:07 AM
...
1
R. K. Borill writes:
[To Jim]

Your argument is "non sequitor".   The assertion that "all gods and doctrines are man made" excludes the possible truth that there is a God that is not "man made".  Furthermore, it does not follow that "all gods and doctrines are man-made" simply because of the premise that "much of theology is the study of gods".  The God described in the Bible assumes existence without argument. 

[ login to reply ] posted on Friday, May 21, 2021 09:10:47 AM
...
0
R. K. Borill writes:

[To R. K. Borill]

Indeed, a god may well exist, and this is the million dollar question, so to speak. However, there are arguments for the existence of a "creator" god, and also arguments for a SPECIFIC god, over all other gods. Since the man-made arguments for said god/gods often contradict one another, they cannot all be correct (although they could all be wrong).

Regardless of the actual existence of a god, ALL doctrines, without exception, are man-made.

When people claim that the Bible is the Word of God, the only known truth is that the Bible is the word of man, who CLAIMS it is the Word of God. It's important to make this distinction.

[ login to reply ] posted on Friday, May 21, 2021 10:25:35 AM
...
0
Monique Z writes:

We can ignore (for the moment) the split in belief of those who believe that God is the Father and Jesus is the Son, and those who believe that Jesus IS God (albeit in a different format).

You cannot ignore this distinction if you want to properly analyze the Trinity. The Trinity states that all three persons are distinct, but share in the essence of God. 

When you say Jesus is God "in a different format" you imply that Jesus is God taking another form. This is not Trinitarianism, but another philosophy called modalism.

posted on Friday, May 21, 2021 07:01:42 AM
...
0
Monique Z writes:
[To Monique Z]

 Yes, true, although there are many people who belive in the Trinity, yet unknowingly subscribe to modalism.

They get confused, and offer this line :  " it is understood only by those who have the Holy Spirit." 🙂

[ login to reply ] posted on Friday, May 21, 2021 08:19:14 AM
...
0
Monique Z writes:

[To Jim]

Yes, there are people who will say they are a Trinitarian although there are other schools of thought that describe them better. Its not uncommon for Trinitarians to not understand the Trinity, which goes to show how difficult the concept is to grasp!

I felt the distinction was appropriate to answer the question properly 

[ login to reply ] posted on Friday, May 21, 2021 08:39:03 AM
...
0
R. K. Borill writes:
[To Monique Z]

Well, they only need to ask one question.

Do Jesus, God & Holy Spirit each have a unique identity?

[ login to reply ] posted on Friday, May 21, 2021 04:42:14 PM

Want to get notified of all questions as they are asked? Update your mail preferences and turn on "Instant Notification."

Eat Meat... Or Don't.

Roughly 95% of Americans don’t appear to have an ethical problem with animals being killed for food, yet all of us would have a serious problem with humans being killed for food. What does an animal lack that a human has that justifies killing the animal for food but not the human?

As you start to list properties that the animal lacks to justify eating them, you begin to realize that some humans also lack those properties, yet we don’t eat those humans. Is this logical proof that killing and eating animals for food is immoral? Don’t put away your steak knife just yet.

In Eat Meat… Or Don’t, we examine the moral arguments for and against eating meat with both philosophical and scientific rigor. This book is not about pushing some ideological agenda; it’s ultimately a book about critical thinking.

Get 20% off this book and all Bo's books*. Use the promotion code: websiteusers

* This is for the author's bookstore only. Applies to autographed hardcover, audiobook, and ebook.

Get the Book

Answers

...
GoblinCookie
1

The basic idea is that God has multiple identities with a single will.  So we have a number of separate 'processes' that all lead to the same 'conclusion'. 

It does not violate logic any more than 2+2=4 producing the same result as 8/2=4 and 8-4=4 does.  The single outcome (one will) is arrived at by the multiple separate persons. 

answered on Friday, May 21, 2021 03:01:10 PM by GoblinCookie

GoblinCookie Suggested These Categories

Comments

...
0
account no longer exists writes:

Multiple identities would need to be unique identities. A unique identity would require an independent will. Of course each independent will could align with the others, but because they are independent, they could differ. 

So we effectively have 3 gods. 

posted on Friday, May 21, 2021 04:18:31 PM
...
1
GoblinCookie writes:
[To Jim]

That is however how you chosen to conceive of them to begin with.  You have 3 gods because you have demanded this be so, otherwise they do not have in your view separate personalities.  By asserting that they have completely separate wills to count as a person, you set up a double-bind for everyone.

If two separate people agree on the same outcome, that does not mean that they actually do not have their separate wills but they could be said to be 'of one will'.  It is highly implied by the fact that the Devil bothered to tempt Jesus, that a split in the godhead would be theoretically possible but has in fact never actually happened.  It is up there with the god creates boulder too heavy for him to lift. 

The other key difference here is that must be remembered the three persons by virtue of their arriving separately at the same unified will are also sustained as parts of one person.  If you could convince one of the persons of the trinity to dissent against the other two, it would seem therefore that you could destroy God.  I guess that is the devil's idea of victory, to force dissension among the Trinity so their wills no longer perfectly align and God is thus destroyed. 

[ login to reply ] posted on Friday, May 21, 2021 04:47:15 PM
...
0
account no longer exists writes:
[To GoblinCookie]

OK, you can build your own model here, just by answering a few Yes/No questions.


#1 Are the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit individual beings/persons/entities, each with a unique identity? Yes, or No?

#2 Are the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit each omnipotent, omniscient and eternal? Yes, or No?

#3 Do the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit each have an independent will? Yes or No?

Let me know what you decide. Every question is fair, but important.

[ login to reply ] posted on Saturday, May 22, 2021 01:14:53 PM
...
0
GoblinCookie writes:
[To Jim]

Yes, Inquisitor Jim. (:

1> Yes.

2> No, they only possess those characteristics in combination.  Apart from each-other they do not even exist.

3> Yes. 

1 is an interesting number I thought.  If you divide 1 into 3, what you get is 0.33333r, an infinite line of 3s, which amusingly means that when anyone says God is 1 (say Muslims), they are really also saying that God is 3, because that is how mathematics work.  Because 1 is actually 3 sets of infinite 3s (InfinityX3). 

[ login to reply ] posted on Tuesday, May 25, 2021 03:04:22 PM
...
0
account no longer exists writes:
[To GoblinCookie]

It's like "God exists outside of time", yet God is supposed to have existed eternally, therefore God must be inside of time .... or

If God is a spirit (immaterial) , then God is composed of nothing ... and so on.

Just 2 out of the 9,437 reasons why God is impossible :)

[ login to reply ] posted on Tuesday, May 25, 2021 05:52:22 PM
...
0
Monique Z writes:

[To Jim]

It's like "God exists outside of time", yet God is supposed to have existed eternally, therefore God must be inside of time.

 

Im surprised you still haven't found the flaw in your own reasoning. Hmmmmm is it possible that your understanding of outside space is not what thesists are talking about? Maybe that's why you avoided answering my last comment, because you know your argument relies on a definition of outside spacetime nobody is using except for you. 

The fallacies in your reasoning are so evident that I suspect you're not taking these discussions seriously. You've insisted on using a definition that was not intended (equivocation fallacy) in order to make the position easier to attack (definist fallacy), making the argument as a whole a strawman. 

You have yet to demonstrate that the definition of outside spacetime I and many others have offered is incoherent. I'll be waiting....

 

[ login to reply ] posted on Wednesday, May 26, 2021 07:12:12 AM
...
0
Kaiden writes:

[To Jim]

It's like "God exists outside of time", yet God is supposed to have existed eternally, therefore God must be inside of time ....

Perhaps you can be clearer about how this shows that God’s existence is a matter of impossibility. Supposing that God has existed eternally and hence inside of time, it would be false that God exists outside of time. If one of the two views about God is true, the other is false. Where does the impossibility of God's existence figure into any of that?

What would be impossible is a position that says both that God is outside of time and that God is inside of time. But which theistic tradition maintains that position about God?

 

If God is a spirit (immaterial), then God is composed of nothing ... and so on.

Being immaterial is not sufficient for being composed of nothing. There are such things as metaphysical parts. For instance, metaphysical parts can be act and potency, essence and existence, and genus and species. There is nothing about composition per se that requires some or all of the parts involved to be parcels of matter.

 

[ login to reply ] posted on Thursday, May 27, 2021 11:17:49 AM
...
Bill
1

Theology has its own logic and many people have asked the same question. BTW, your line of argument is what originally gave rise to Unitarianism in the 18th Century. 

answered on Friday, May 21, 2021 10:45:36 AM by Bill

Bill Suggested These Categories

Comments

...
Mchasewalker
0

Well, yes, in the Aristotelian sense, it clearly does. This is not to say that theologians, philosophers, and religious apologists (from time immemorial) have not spilled gallons of ink trying to reconcile with it.

Firstly, consider the historical reality that "the concept of the triune God" is one of the earliest constructs of the human imagination.

“Many who believe in the Trinity are surprised, perhaps shocked, to learn that the idea of divine beings existing as trinities or triads long predated Christianity. Yet, as we will see, the evidence is abundantly documented.” Marie Sinclair, Countess of Caithness, Old Truths in a New Light.

“It is generally, although erroneously, supposed that the doctrine of the Trinity is of Christian origin. Nearly every nation of antiquity possessed a similar doctrine. All the ancient nations believed in the Trinity ” The early Catholic theologian, St. Jerome p. 382).

Even Aristotle wrote: ‘All things are three, and thrice is all: and let us use this number in the worship of the gods; for, as the Pythagoreans say, everything and all things are bounded by threes, for the end, the middle and the beginning have this number in everything, and these compose the number of the Trinity’ ” (Arthur Weigall, Paganism in Our Christianity, 1928, pp. 197-198).

The typical theological strategy is either to spin The Laws or Move the Goal Post altogether. Mostly this consists of embracing the Laws of Identity and Non-Contradiction but move them beyond human conceptualization and place them immutably in the 'mind' of God. (See Ronald Nash, Gordon Clarke, Cathcart and Klein, etc. ) 

The Hindus had an especially novel approach to your Harrison Ford analogy by depicting its triune Gods Vishnu, Bramha, and Shiva and explaining there is but one God, Brahman, in its three manifestations (lilas) as creator, preserver, and destroyer. They even invented their own Law of Acintya Beda Beda Tatwa or simultaneous One and Difference.

While it can be an endlessly fascinating and enlightening line of research and discovery, it's hard not to resolve with Thomas Jefferson's delightful rebuke of the whole confabulation:

"Ridicule is the only weapon which can be used against unintelligible propositions. Ideas must be distinct before reason can act upon them, and no man ever had a distinct idea of the Trinity. It is the mere Abracadabra of the mountebanks calling themselves the priests of Jesus.” Thomas Jefferson Letter to Francis Adrian Van der Kemp (30 July 1816), denouncing the doctrine of the Trinity - 1810 )

Or, as the philosopher, Andrew Bernstein writes, “The tragedy of theology in its distilled essence: The employment of high-powered human intellect, of genius, of profoundly rigorous logical deduction—studying nothing.”

 

answered on Thursday, May 20, 2021 01:07:06 PM by Mchasewalker

Mchasewalker Suggested These Categories

Comments

...
Monique Z
0

Before we can discuss whether the Trinity violates any laws of logic, we need to be correct about what Trinitarianism is. 

it is not Harrison Ford  playing different characters at different times. This is another christian philosophy called modalism.

A more appropriate analogy would be the various actors who have played James Bond. Pierce Brosnan is a unique person, but is also James Bond; Sean Connery is a unique person and is also James Bond; Daniel Craig is a unique person and is also James Bond. Daniel Craig is not Sean Connery, Sean Connery is not Pierce Brosnan, and vice versa. However, they are all James Bond.

Likewise, Trinitarianism states there are three distinct persons that comprise the Godhead. Imagine a monarchy ruled by three kings. They are each equally God in that they all share the same "hypostasis", or "essence"

While its possible that specific beliefs about the Trinity might violate laws of logic, the general concept doesn't seem to violate the principles you mentioned

answered on Friday, May 21, 2021 06:46:56 AM by Monique Z

Monique Z Suggested These Categories

Comments

...
richard smith
0

The Trinity doctrine is  3 individuals that share the same essence. So how do you prove an essence and how would you define it? One definition is : "something that exists : ENTITY" another : "The individual, real, or ultimate nature of a thing especially as opposed to its existence." I do not think logic is outside of theology but I am not sure their is anyway to prove this. Their is nothing in the natural world to compare it too and the only comparison I would think would be a 3 headed person. Maybe violate the law of  identity but I do  not think the law of non-contradictions.

 

answered on Friday, May 21, 2021 08:31:43 AM by richard smith

richard smith Suggested These Categories

Comments

...
1
account no longer exists writes:

The killer test is to ask if the 3 persons each have a unique identity, if so, they cannot be one God. They can each be God in a different format, in which case they all share a common identity.

Also, is each person omnipotent? If so, then that's 3 gods, not 1 God. 

Again, we have a problem. Two or more co-existing omnipotent entities is a logical contradiction,  as each would limit the other's power, thus making them NOT omnipotent.

posted on Friday, May 21, 2021 08:47:00 AM
...
0
richard smith writes:

[To Jim]

Most trinity believers that I have talk to believe they are 3 unique personality and 3 co-equal in everything. That is part of the problem with he Modern version of it. If you go back and read the writing of the father of the doctrine. What he taught is no where near what modern version teaches. He never taught they was co-equal and taught they was 3 that are one in purpose and not united in essence. Essentially 3 gods united in 1 purpose.

[ login to reply ] posted on Friday, May 21, 2021 08:58:43 AM
...
0
Monique Z writes:
[To Jim]

"Again, we have a problem. Two or more co-existing omnipotent entities is a logical contradiction,  as each would limit the other's power, thus making them NOT omnipotent."

I don't see how you figure this is problematic for Christianity. The Bible describes the will of Jesus and the holy Spirit as being the will of the fathers.

Both Jesus and the holy spirit are described as being "sent forth" or "proceeding from" the father. So there's no question as to which member of the Godhead is the prime being. The will of Jesus and the spirit is the will of the father. This also explains what is meant by one God in three persons. They are one God in that they have a single unified will.

I don't see how this violates any of the logical axioms you mentioned.

 

[ login to reply ] posted on Saturday, May 22, 2021 07:03:49 AM
...
0
account no longer exists writes:
[To Monique Z]

"I don't see how you figure this is problematic for Christianity."

It's not a problem for Christianity, but it you give precedence to logic, then two co-existing omnipotent beings IS a logical contradiction. If we have the strongest man in the world (A), there cannot be another man (B) who is the strongest man. In other words, B cannot be A, and A cannot be B. It's the same with any superlative.

If we now move to Christianity, the one important thing to remember is that God is anything you want it to be. So, it's nice to say that the 3 persons have a unified will, but if each of the 3 persons has an independent will, a free will, then theoretically the wills could oppose each other.

So, I said "God is anything you want it to be." Look at these 2 accounts from religious organisations :

Here's an example, from www.intouchuk.org/Read/th. . . :
  
#1 .."While there's only one God, the Godhead consists of three distinct persons—the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. All are equally omniscient, OMNIPOTENT, omnipresent, eternal, and unchanging, but each one has unique functions."

Realising the error of the logical impossibility of 3 co-existing omnipotent beings, we then had this, from www.gotquestions.org/Trin. . . :

#2 .."There is subordination within the Trinity. Scripture shows that the Holy Spirit is subordinate to the Father and the Son, and the Son is subordinate to the Father."  

Obviously #1 and #2 are contradictory, so they cannot both be correct.

#1 is logically impossible, therefore untrue.

#2 is at least logically possible, so as a claim, it is fine. 

Of course this whole concept is untestable and unfalsifiable, but that's normal for any religious claim.

[ login to reply ] posted on Saturday, May 22, 2021 01:10:34 PM
...
0
Monique Z writes:
[To Jim]

The reason it is not a contradiction is because each persons are all unified with a single will. So whatever Jesus does is done in accordance to the father.whatever the father does is in accordance with the son, and so it is with each member. , That means each member is equally omnipotent, and that would not be a logical contradiction in that

[ login to reply ] posted on Saturday, May 22, 2021 02:34:15 PM
...
Dr. Richard
0

You present this: “The big question is : does each of these persons have a unique identity?”

This, I think, places you too high in the hierarchy of the logical process. It would help if you first defined the gods of which you speak. You cannot assume anyone understands what your definition is until you tell them. 

Logically, in any discussion, one must present (1) an intelligible definition of the subject under discussion [in this case god] and (2) adduce evidence to support the proposition [in this case, the existence of the god defined]. No one has ever presented me with (1), so we never got to (2). 

To me, the problem faced by those who profess a belief in a god — any god — is not they cannot adduce any evidence to support their belief. The problem is first to define what the god is, then discuss other aspects of that god. 

answered on Friday, May 21, 2021 11:34:51 AM by Dr. Richard

Dr. Richard Suggested These Categories

Comments