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Bo Bennett, PhD

Weak Analogy? If you support transgender, to be consistent, you should support people who wish to identify as another race.

I realize this gets into some philosophy/politics/science, but I am curious what the members think on this topic. The claim is that this is a weak analogy , thus fallacious. Agree? Disagree? To what extent?

asked on Sunday, Apr 11, 2021 02:18:31 PM by Bo Bennett, PhD

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Joe writes:

Well this falls under the assumption that both "race", and "gender" are socially constructed. But this analogy ignores the multiple strains of social constructivism (some are weak constructs where it is subjectively viewed by society, and some are strong constructs where society views that specific construct, in a structural manner; like race).

(Also I don't know if this would fit but I'm thinking its a false dilemmaor possibly a false equivalence.)

posted on Sunday, Apr 11, 2021 04:13:59 PM
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Joe writes:
[To Joe]

I agree that it is perhaps a false equivalence, but not a false dilemma.

[ login to reply ] posted on Sunday, Apr 11, 2021 06:11:56 PM
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TrappedPrior (RotE) writes:

In addition to my in-depth answer below; what do we mean by 'support'?

Do we mean 'accept' (as in, if Becky Smith thinks she's black, go along with it), or 'advocate' (as in, start transracialism into an acute social movement where white black-identifying people would, say, benefit from racial diversity quotas)?

The argument could be more or less reasonable depending on how 'support' is defined, as the former would rely on less similarities between transracialism and being transgender in order to be valid.

posted on Sunday, Apr 11, 2021 07:49:58 PM
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Shockwave writes:

As it stands, this can be considered weak analogy and non sequitur.

However, since the words "gender" and "race" are relatively often used in different meanings, I would ask a person who states something like this to explain his position to me, to explain to me why he thinks that "gender" and "race" are so similar.

posted on Monday, Apr 12, 2021 11:07:10 AM
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skips777 writes:

Identifying as "another race" has more scientific credibility. The claim that people who have gender dysphoria have seemingly different brains than their outward appearance suggests has struck me as politically INcorrect. I.e. Women/men are ALL supposed to share a type of brain. I'm pretty sure scientists don't have several billion brains to study this by to make their conclusions. However, I know some people can show genetic evidence, even if small, of having another race in their biology. 

So, yes weak analogy, false equivalence, maybe  I've read that gender confusion has risen 1500% among teenagers in the last decade. I've never thought there was any confusion amongst teens....Aren't teens mature and mostly stable?

posted on Tuesday, Apr 13, 2021 01:11:43 PM
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skips777 writes:

It seems like you are correlating having gender dysphoria with being immature. Having the gender dysphoria doesn't mean your immature.

posted on Monday, Apr 19, 2021 04:54:51 AM

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Answers

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TrappedPrior (RotE)
4

This was actually discussed in feminist academia recently. There was a bit of a ruckus about it...

Let's parse the argument that it is a valid analogy.

P) Gender is socially constructed.

P) We accept people who identify as another gender. (transgender people)

P) Race is also socially constructed.

Implicit P) Race is more like gender than unlike it

C) To be consistent, we should accept people who identify as another race ('transracial' people).

The argument is that since both race and gender are socially constructed, as far as treating 'trans' people goes, there is no morally relevant difference that justifies accepting one and not the other - which is that implicit premise P. If the implicit premise - the linchpin of the syllogism - is false, then the argument falls apart as its remaining premises no longer imply the conclusion (non sequitur).

As it is, the premise is not empirical (it is false), from the point of view of most trans rights activists. This is because even though both race and gender are affected by sociology, they are not equally so. Gender has at least some basis in brain chemistry (hence the existence of gender dysphoria), so someone's gender identity could be mismatched with their biological sex. There is no possibility of this for race, since it is purely socially constructed (and also inaccurate). 

So...it is a weak analogy. I'd love to see what other people say about this though.

answered on Sunday, Apr 11, 2021 07:19:36 PM by TrappedPrior (RotE)

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Joe writes:

This is pretty spot on. I think it could also fall under a false equivalence , because it equivalences race and gender as an equivalent construct, when in reality that is not the case. 

posted on Sunday, Apr 11, 2021 09:28:18 PM
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richard smith writes:

Depends what you believe race and gender as. If they are social construct than no fallacy. But scientifically we know that it is more complicated than that. Looking at it  scientifically I would call it a False Equivalence.

posted on Monday, Apr 12, 2021 08:54:57 AM
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LogicG writes:

I actually think there is something quite problematic in the first two promises.

If we accept a person who identifies as another gender, it is not because that gender is socially constructed but because however gender is socially constructed, we believe it is reasonable for the person to identify as another gender. What justifies my claim that I am a female than male, therefore, must be irrelavent to what is socially constructed. This indicates that "Gender is socially constructed" may well be true, but it is irrelavent to the second premise. Similarly, even if race is socially constructed, it does not follow that we should accept whoever identifies as another race. We should accept people who identify as another race if we believe it is reasonable for the person to so identify, regardless of if or how race is socially constructed. 

It seems to me that the argument may be invalid, for the second premise is in fact a subconclusion.

posted on Tuesday, Apr 13, 2021 05:18:51 AM
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TrappedPrior (RotE) writes:

[To LogicG]

You are correct. Just because something is socially constructed does not mean that it is reasonable to identify as it.

If it is reasonable to identify as X, then we accept people who do so.

So, 'it is reasonable to identify as X' would be another implicit premise.

Then again, the degree to which something is constructed also plays a role in determining whether it is considered reasonable to identify as X, so...

[ login to reply ] posted on Tuesday, Apr 13, 2021 09:50:40 AM
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mchasewalker
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No fallacy, but the subjects need to be clarified rather than generalized. 

Race and gender are equivalent psycho-social constructs that evolved from very primitive evolutionary instincts. No false equivalence.

This can be validated through advanced studies in evolutionary psychology, behavioral science, and neuroscience. Anyone schooled in religious mythological traditions will be familiar with how the myths of race (Chosen Ones) and transgendered gods and goddesses preoccupied the ancient world, cultures, and imaginations. 

More recently, (Sherman and Cohen 2006) The Yale Cognition Project has studied how humans develop and engage in IPR or Identity-Protective Reasoning. Both genderism and race can be considered factors in personal (tribal/communal) identity formation. (Jeb Bush listed himself as Hispanic on a form).

If race and genderism contribute to a person’s means of identity protection then it should be considered without necessarily supporting or invalidating them altogether.

 

answered on Monday, Apr 12, 2021 12:43:58 PM by mchasewalker

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GoblinCookie writes:

Race is brand new, it does not really have a long history to it at all and certainly isn't part of anyone's primitive evolutionary instincts, even if we were to stretch it to ancient bigoted religious supremacy notions (Judaism), it still makes it rather young.  Gender is pretty old, older than the human race but does not really provide anyone with an tribal identity, more of a status within a given tribal identity. 

The former is far more of a social construct than the latter, the socially defined categories are also far more similar.  People of different races are far more alike than men and woman are. 

posted on Tuesday, Apr 13, 2021 12:33:35 PM
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GoblinCookie
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A key difference is that we are generally trying to abolish race but we are not trying to abolish gender. 

answered on Tuesday, Apr 13, 2021 12:35:54 PM by GoblinCookie

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Bo Bennett, PhD writes:

Interesting observation. I do wonder, however, how many people really do want to abolish race rather than celebrate it and make it a primary factor in self-identification.

posted on Tuesday, Apr 13, 2021 01:12:27 PM
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GoblinCookie writes:
[To Bo Bennett, PhD]

 
Interesting observation. I do wonder, however, how many people really do want to abolish race rather than celebrate it and make it a primary factor in self-identification.

I thought that was the definition of anti-racism, that you wanted to abolish race as a social category.  The practical problem of anti-racism is in order to fight racism you have to mobilize races to fight against the dominant/privileged races but in doing so you can end up strengthening the race concept and the dominant/privileged races very much want to keep their privileges which would go if race no longer existed. 

It is the general controlled opposition problem, how do we know the opposition to something really is it's opposition and not just puppets of the existing power misleading it's enemies into self-destruction. 

[ login to reply ] posted on Wednesday, Apr 14, 2021 02:14:26 PM