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Bo Bennett, PhD

The "Chinese" Virus

There has been a lot of partisan rhetoric surrounding the naming of Covid-19. I have seen fallacious arguments being made from both sides of the political isle. What do you make of this argument?

We see no problem with calling food that originates from China, "Chinese Food."
Therefore, we should see no problem with calling viruses that originate in China, "Chinese Viruses."

asked on Thursday, Mar 19, 2020 11:45:04 AM by Bo Bennett, PhD

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Answers

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Bryan
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Chinese food is a style specific to China (or an overarching term which covers various locations), the virus may have originated there but it is clearly not specific to a region and/or country, and isn't being spread by Chinese people specifically. 

Emigrants settle in communities in their new home and being their culture and cuisine, partly as a bond within the community and partly because that's what they like and know. I think it would be absurd to suggest that they have a hankering for a virus and chose to bring it via migration, which clearly didn't happen. This would be a weak analogy.

On the other hand, I don't really see a big deal in calling in that, depending on the message behind the words. Did the Spanish have a problem with an influenza epidemic which didn't originate in Spain? Ironically it is thought to have originated in China, spreading to Europe with workers who came to replace the people drafted to the Western front. So why not go with that formula and call it the Spanish virus?

The rhetoric I'm aware of seems to be along the lines of "this foreign virus taking American virus' jobs!" along with the ridiculous "this is most aggressive and comprehensive effort to confront a foreign virus in modern history" trying to turn it into a patriotic rallying point to bolster a disastrous attempt at running a country which is the laughing stock of the world. It's similar to how many struggling governments would start a war to garner public support. 

Under normal circumstances it might not be a problem, but with the cynical motives I suspect are behind the label, at a time where America and China have been involved in commercial brinkmanship, it probably isn't very helpful but is certainly consistent. I suspect that Winnie the Pooh will continue to outsmart the commander of cheese where it counts. 

answered on Thursday, Mar 19, 2020 03:25:32 PM by Bryan

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Jason Mathias
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"We see no problem with calling food that originates from China, "Chinese Food." 
Therefore, we should see no problem with calling viruses that originate in China, "Chinese Viruses.""

This is a false equivalence fallacy. 

Both Chinese food and COVID-19 come from China., but COVID-19 (a deadly virus which kills innocent people) and Chinese food (their culture) are not equal. 

answered on Monday, Mar 23, 2020 05:31:06 PM by Jason Mathias

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Citizen Irrelevant writes:

With your answer, cooler heads have prevailed.  Excellent, cogent response.

posted on Tuesday, Mar 24, 2020 10:36:28 AM
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Jorge
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Here's what I'm noticing. They are 

1. Missing context 2. Applying generalizations and 3. restricting the use of a word.

Principles or logic used

If we use a label to identify something that originated from it, then anything that originated from that label should have that label.

Example: 

Pete the cook made a tomato sauce. In the process, he accidentally dropped some tomatoes to the floor and they were all squashed. He then accidentally forgot that the squashed tomatoes were on the floor and added them to a new batch. This new batch is therefore a tomato sauce. 

Relating it to the original argument, Chinese food is intentionally made but not the virus; so attaching the word "Chinese" misses that distinction. In my example, the squashed tomatoes that fell to the floor might be a tomato sauce but not the one that we might think. 

This could be an Appeal to Definition because we would be restricting what we mean by "tomato sauce" or Chinese related things. Moreover, if we say that Pete made a tomato sauce, then we could either be saying that he made the one that he originally intended to make or made the one that was done by accident with tomatoes that were on the floor. This would be a Contextomy depending on how much knowledge the arguer has (claim: this is a tomato sauce). 

Finally, I mentioned that there is also some kind of generalization. To say things that originated from China are therefore Chinese might suggest that those originations are due to Chinese culture. This is Stereotyping (the fallacy) .

answered on Friday, Mar 20, 2020 01:38:28 PM by Jorge

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Bryan writes:

"To say things that originated from China are therefore Chinese might suggest that those originations are due to Chinese culture."

I was initially thinking along the lines of this but then when we refer to Siberian or Bengal tigers there's no cultural thing, just geographic. However the reference is to where they reside, not originate. A virus doesn't recognise borders and doesn't care about the nationality of whose cells it infects. 

posted on Friday, Mar 20, 2020 06:59:49 PM
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Jorge writes:

[To Bryan]

True. I also reflected on what you're saying after reading DrBill's comment but decided to leave it as it is because people can imbed all kinds of contexts to phrases. It's possible that even though the Spanish flu wasn't view as a cultural thing from Spain, perhaps the Chinese virus is viewed differently this time, especially because of the partisan rhetoric stuff.

[ login to reply ] posted on Friday, Mar 20, 2020 10:45:34 PM
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DrBill
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The term "Chinese" is neutral and accurate in many contexts, but may be used for hasty generalization, when mere origin is conflated with implied malevolence.

Not only Chinese food, but Chinese people are well-defined phrases, one with the context of style, the other with origination or recognizable ethnicity.

On the other hand, no one imagined malevolence in the term "Spanish flu" and I don't even know if it's factual that it came from Spain.  It's just a term, and Chinese virus is no more nor less in my view.

On the other hand (3, so far...perhaps I'm acting as an economist), the likely genesis of the partisan rhetoric arises from political opportunism imo, a form of special pleading an old article in the NY Times called "ethnocentric insider/outsider doctrine".  "Anybody but Trumpism" if you will, maybe a new fallacy (generically, "special negative pleading").

By the way, there's a limitation on patent examiners' rejection of applications called "reading into", by which their denial may be reversed when the rejection is based on possibilities of prior art.  I think in the current kerfluffle, the media is reading into what Trump said.

Objectively, the evidence I've read makes it likely factual that coronavirus evolved in and was transmitted from China.  Is it somehow disingenuous to say where it came from, so PC-ness makes cowards of us all?

answered on Friday, Mar 20, 2020 02:42:00 PM by DrBill

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Citizen Irrelevant writes:

No, it's slightly xenophobic, though. And a weaponizing of the language.  And racist.

This may also arrive as a shock, but virologists suggest this virus came from a lab in North Carolina.  Something about the manmade spike it carries, and its RNA design.  I believe the point artfully evaded in this discussion is Trump's well-known perjorative branding used to deride, blame,  belittle, or simply erode other's credibility.  It's the outward sign of his malignant narcissism and role as the cult leader for his followers.  It has no place here in this forum, it's far too politicized for LogicallyFallacious.

posted on Tuesday, Mar 24, 2020 10:46:50 AM
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DrBill writes:
[To Citizen Irrelevant]

We disagree on every opinion you wrote.

As for the claim that "virologists suggest", it's so far the fallacy of appeal to authority, unknown authority at that.  

I'm glad you were so open about your animus towards President Trump, because it informs a case I have been urging for a while, that we address issues, not attack ad hominem.  It is possible to discuss political things when they're relevant imo, but to generalize and politicize so that attack is possible is the fallacy of hasty generalization with an overlay of circular reasoning.

I hope we can continue to disagree, without becoming disagreeable.

 

[ login to reply ] posted on Thursday, Mar 26, 2020 02:26:29 PM
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Jason Mathias
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The term, "Chinese Virus" originates from Donald Trump. The following thought experiments might reveal some possible double standards or special pleading in Trumps rational in inventing this new name for COVID-19. 

Ok, lets go off probabilities here. What percent chance do you think Trump would change the name to, "The American Virus" if it had originated in America?

What percent chance do you think that Trump would verbally attack China's leader if China's leader had changed the name to, The American Virus?"

What percent chance do you think Trump would change the name to, "The Israel Virus" if it originated in Israel?

What percent probability do you think Trump would change the name to, "The China Virus" if it originated in China?

What percent chance do you think Trump would change the name to, "The Mexican Virus" if it originated in Mexico?

What percent change do you think Trump would change the name to, "The Norway Virus" if it had originated in Norway? 

What percent chance do you think Trump would change the name to, "The Joe Biden Virus" if it originated in Biden? 

This is all due to Trumps biases and political strategy with his dog whistles. His supporters love Trump because he triggers their perceived political enemies with his dog whistles and covert language that has plausible deniability, and they love him for that. It might be a form of sadism?

BTW, the Spanish Flu originated in America, not Spain.

 

answered on Tuesday, Mar 24, 2020 07:36:37 PM by Jason Mathias

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DrBill writes:

Here again, the animus towards Trump dominates, adding nothing to logical analysis.

As to where Spanish flu originated, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spanish_flu#Hypotheses_about_the_source does not support the claim Jason made.

In any case, misnamed though it was, there was no sense of it as a pejorative, but rather a descriptive term.

posted on Thursday, Mar 26, 2020 02:37:41 PM
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Jason Mathias writes:

[To DrBill]

Read your own link. The first known case of the Spanish Flu was in fact reported in America. (Likewise, the first known case of COVID-19 was reported in China, and its origins are unknown as well)

Copied and pasted from your Wikipedia link: "On 4 March 1918, company cook Albert Gitchell, from Haskell County, reported sick at Fort Riley, a US military facility that at the time was training American troops during World War I, making him the first recorded victim of the flu. Within days, 522 men at the camp had reported sick."

I said I was offering some thought experiments to ponder which required some hypothetical fallacies, not a true logical analysis, but something to better understand Trumps biases for re-naming the Virus. 

[ login to reply ] posted on Thursday, Mar 26, 2020 03:30:27 PM
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DrBill writes:
[To Jason Mathias ]

Copying and pasting of the part of the article that supports your opinion is called "cherry picking".  Further on in the same (2nd of three) subsection, it says "A 2018 study of tissue slides and medical reports led by evolutionary biology professor Michael Worobey found evidence against the disease originating from Kansas as those cases were milder and had fewer deaths [emphasis mine] compared to the situation in New York City in the same time period."

The first of the subsections says the analysis by British researchers said "The research was published in 1999 by a British team, led by virologist John Oxford.[17] In late 1917, military pathologists reported the onset of a new disease with high mortality that they later recognized as the flu."  1917 is before 1918.

Honi soit qui mal y pense applies to the thought experiments imo.  Look it up on wiki, if/when you reconsider the link I shared.

[ login to reply ] posted on Thursday, Mar 26, 2020 03:52:34 PM
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Jason Mathias writes:
[To DrBill]

Claims that copying and pasting a section of the article that supports my opinion is "cherry picking". Then goes on to copy and paste a section of the article that supports your opinion.

You are also taking this out of context. The context is that Trump renamed the virus because, "it comes from China." Trump did not make this claim based off the scientific genetic research as that is non conclusive of its origin. Trump was making the claim based on the fact that the first case was in China. So, keeping within this context I am claiming that the first case of the Spanish Flu was in America. And that is not an opinion, its a fact. 

[ login to reply ] posted on Thursday, Mar 26, 2020 04:10:10 PM
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DrBill writes:
[To Jason Mathias ]

You copied and pasted and so did I.  OK, so read the whole article, and tell me what was said there or anywhere else that says 1918>1917.

AFAIK, it comes from (came from, with the brief history) China.  It is not pejorative to so note and your persistent impugning innuendo is not logically based.

In light of the whole article I cited, your persistent claim of origin in US is unwarranted.  You are entitled to your opinion, but not to claim the lack of definitive evidence supports it.  That's another fallacy, aka, arguing from ignorance.

 

[ login to reply ] posted on Thursday, Mar 26, 2020 04:52:09 PM
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Jason Mathias writes:

[To DrBill]

"You copied and pasted and so did I."

No, you originally copied and pasted a link which went directly to the "cherry picked" part of the Wikipedia article that supported your argument. I simply pointed out a different part in addition to that which states that the first known case of the Spanish Flu was in the U.S. Then, you accuse me of cherry picking by copying and pasting from the article you first copied and pasted what you cherry picked.

My original argument was that the first known case of the Spanish Flu was in America. That context fits better with the discussion then a scientific investigation of the genome, because COVID-19's first known case was in China, and that is what Tump based his claim off of that "It comes from China". 

You refusing to accept the fact that the first reported case of the Spanish Flu was in America is Moving The Goal Post. Especially when its within the context of my argument which was that the first known case of COVID-19 was in China, and likewise the first known case of the Spanish Flu was in America. Whether or not it originated there first is irrelevant to the argument. Given how evolution works there is really no point of origin in that context. 

[ login to reply ] posted on Thursday, Mar 26, 2020 07:01:33 PM