Question

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Jack

What fallacy is this if any? Strawman, Definist, reframing?

So, I try to use the claim that as an atheist

Me: 

I do not believe there is no God. I just don't believe there is one.

Them:

That ain't atheism

Me: 

Why not?

Them: 

It doesn't negate the possible nor the necessary existence of gods. It's antichristian for example if anything

Me: 

how is it anti? it's no denial.

Them: 

Christian God is not a God 
 Sounds like denial

Me:

I never said christian god is not god. 

Them:

"I do not believe there is no God, I just don't believe their (insert x religion) is one"

 

Me:

Beleiving there is no God and just not having a belief that there is one are two different things. 

Them

No

Me:

Beleiving there is no God and just not having a belief that there is one are two different things. 

Them:

Correct, but that isn't the case here. 

Me: 

Why not? 

Them: 

I don't believe that x is true" is not absence of belief. 

Me: 

That is the case here. 

Them: 

If I were to mean that, I would say that I don't have a ideological position about x matter, saying that I don't believe in x as meaning the former is bollocks. 

Me:

are you able to carify what you mean? I am not entirely sure I understand you right. Right now, it sounds like you are saying that everyone has some ideological position.

Them: 

I don't believe in x being true" is never understood to refer to an absence of belief about whether x is true of false, that's because it is written "x being true", which means that if you dont believe that x is true, then you must believe x is false, since believing in x not being true is a belief. "... I just don't believe their God is one (true God)" is in the form of "I don't believe in x being true" as talked above

 

I am almost certain that the fallacious part is on the other party here. The claim right at the beginning just means you don't possess a belief that a God exists but nor do you possess a belief that God doesn't exist. And just because you don't yet believe something to be true does not automatically mean you believe it to be false right? 

 

 

 

asked on Monday, Dec 11, 2023 08:46:52 AM by Jack

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Kostas Oikonomou writes:

If you don't believe something exists and you don't believe that something does not exist, I would suggest expressing that pair of non-beliefs as "I don't know whether that something exists". Anything else is prone to misconceptions, because when you say for example "I don't believe in vampires", it is in day-to-day conversations (something that does not apply in formal logic) implied that you believe there are no vampires. I think people, in general, say "I don't know" when they're uncertain rather than "I don't believe".   

posted on Tuesday, Dec 12, 2023 08:02:13 AM
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Doug Glaass writes:

I have had some success with saying, "You know how you know 'I don't believe you' isn't a claim?"

When I say, "God doesn't exist," it logically follows that you could respond with: "OK, prove it."

When I say, "I don't believe in God," it wouldn't make any sense to say, "Prove it."  You'd be asking me to prove that I don't believe in God, which is not something that could be done beyond your believing me to be honest or not when I make the statement.

posted on Tuesday, Dec 12, 2023 12:31:34 PM
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Mr. Wednesday writes:

[To Doug Glaass]

I don't agree with this, for a couple reasons. The definition of claim is pretty broad, simply that you are asserting something. That thing being true, or there being some viable way to prove it, isn't actually a requirement.

While a person's internal thoughts and feelings are difficult to prove, it can often be inferred from their actions, and you can build a base of evidence to support such a claim. For instance, if you tell me "I don't want to steal your dog" then I go to great lengths to ensure that you're never alone with my dog, it's pretty reasonable to infer that I don't believe you.

[ login to reply ] posted on Tuesday, Dec 12, 2023 03:08:28 PM
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Doug Glaass writes:
[To Mr. Wednesday]

How are you going to prove whether or not I believe something.

"I don't believe [insert story]" is not an assertion of anything. It means I'm not convinced by the evidence.

If you come to me and say, "I took a submarine down to the Titanic."

I most likely would not believe you.  That wouldn't tell you anything about whether or not I think going to the Titanic were possible, the existence of the Titanic or the ability of submarines to go that deep. It would simply mean I don't believe you.

This is a really easy concept to understand except when the story that people say they don't believe is some man-made yarn about goat herders and where they thought the sun went at night.

[ login to reply ] posted on Tuesday, Dec 12, 2023 06:41:59 PM
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Mr. Wednesday writes:
[To Doug Glaass]

When you say "I don't believe," you are asserting that you do not believe. The claim is that you do not hold the belief. Whether the underlying story is true or false, that is secondary.

Whether or not there is any way to prove that you hold that belief is completely irrelevant. If a claim can't be proven or disproven, it is still a claim. I can claim that, on this date 20 years ago, I ate a ham sandwich for lunch. As no records have survived, there's no way to prove or disprove that, but it doesn't cease to be a claim.

There are some circumstances when belief as a claim in and of itself is actually important, criminal law being one of them. In a self defense case, a defendant could claim that they believed they were in imminent danger. More broadly is the concept of mens rea. A defendant could claim that they did not believe their actions were illegal. In both instances, the prosecution and defense will present evidence, in an attempt to prove whether the defendant's actions were consistent with those beliefs, and by extension prove whether that belief was actually held.

[ login to reply ] posted on Wednesday, Dec 13, 2023 01:25:20 AM
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Doug Glaass writes:

[To Mr. Wednesday]

I'm glad we've had this exchange because I now understand the problem, and you've asked me to understand why people become confused when the existence - or not- of a deity is invoked.  Usually, the two issues haven't realized that they have not agreed on a mutual understanding of what "believe" means.

In your ham sandwich example, were I to say I don't believe that you ate a ham sandwich, i think it would be reasonable to infer that I, in fact, was of the opinion that you didn't eat one. A claim.

When I say (and I think many others) "I don't believe in God," what is heard is the meaning above and thus inferring the claim of the non existence of a Hod. However, what we really mean is, "I'm not swayed by the evidence I've this far evaluated. Nothing has convinced me yet that a God exists."

Going back to your sandwich, were I to say, "I'm not convinced that you ate a ham sandwich," in this case, I don't think it would be reasonable to think that I was of the opinion that you didn't.  You may have, but based on what I know, I'm can not with any certainty affirm your claim.

[ login to reply ] posted on Wednesday, Dec 13, 2023 10:10:33 PM
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Kaiden writes:

Much could be picked apart about this, but let me zero in on one issue that ruins the flow of conversation and stares out at me like broccoli caught in my dinner guest’s teeth. At the onset, you state that “I do not believe there is no God. I just don't believe there is one.” The fourth time that your interlocutor speaks he attempts to repeat your position back to you, but the words you have typed into his mouth reveal him as having heard you say “I do not believe there is no God, I just don't believe THEIR (insert x religion) is one.” He heard you as saying “their”, according to what you have typed into his mouth, whereas what you actually meant was “there.” Amidst the rest of the chattering, this discrepancy, appearing more than once, is not rectified at any point. 

posted on Tuesday, Dec 12, 2023 05:06:14 PM

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Answers

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AI Fallacy Master
2
Well, first of all, this conversation is like a philosophical version of "Who's on First" crossed with a heavy dose of semantics soup. A sprinkle of Strawman seems to be in play when "Them" suggests that "Me" is denying a Christian god, even though "Me" made no such statement. But truly the star of the show here is the False Dichotomy Fallacy. "Them" is insisting that if you don't believe something is true, it means you must believe it's false. It's like saying because I don't believe in unicorns, I must believe in... non-unicorns? Anyway, that's not how belief (or unicorns) work. You can not believe in God without asserting there is no God. You can also not believe in God without owning a collection of anti-God merchandise. Remember, folks, atheism is a lack of belief in deities, not a subscription to the monthly Anti-God Digest. So let's give a round of applause for the False Dichotomy Fallacy, the real superstar here! *cue laugh track*
answered on Monday, Dec 11, 2023 08:47:22 AM by AI Fallacy Master

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Alan Wells
1

The statement:

"I do not believe there is no God."

technically means that the person making the statement believes in God. But if the person making that statement doesn't understand what they are saying, and the intended meaning is that they are leaving open the possibility that there is a God, then the technical meaning of the sentence is different than the intended communication. If the person making that statement proclaims to be an atheist, then maybe they are unsure of their beliefs and are leaving open the possibility of proof that there is a God. One accepted definition of an agnostic is a person who claims neither faith nor disbelief in God. But if they didn't know the word or definition for agnostic, then they might be incorrectly calling themselves an atheist. Whatever the case may be, the very first sentence creates potential confusion. The situation is that there is a proclaimed atheist using a double negative in a sentence that technically means that they believe in God. Do they really understand what they are saying? That doesn't make any sense. They are contradicting themselves. I would call this poor communication. So, right from the start, the argument is being built on confusing and contradictory communication. Now let's consider the second sentence:

"I just don't believe there is one."

The technical meaning of that sentence is that they don't believe there is a God. Which contradicts the previous sentence. Even if the intended meaning of the first sentence was that they were leaving open the possibility of someone proving to them that there is a God, the second sentence contradicts that meaning as well. Because of the immediate problems with the first two sentences, trying to evaluate the rest of the conversation creates the risk that false validity will be inadvertently given to the starting point of the argument. If the first two sentences are assumed to be the premise of further statements, then the argument is being built on some confusing and contradictory thinking. I apologize that I don't have a named logical fallacy for my explanation, but I wanted to present my evaluation for consideration.

answered on Tuesday, Dec 12, 2023 01:26:45 PM by Alan Wells

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Mr. Wednesday writes:

I don't think the two statements are necessarily contradictory. Does a chair believe in god? No. That is not because the chair believes there is no god, but because a chair is an inanimate object and it doesn't believe anything. If you were to talk about a person rather than a chair, it would be unusual phrasing, but not technically incorrect.

Also to split hairs on the difference between atheism and agnosticism: The generally accepted consensus is that an atheist is a person who does not hold a belief that a god or gods exist. Agnostic is Greek for "without knowledge," an agnostic is a person who specifically holds the position that it is unknown whether god exists. That said, a person who believes there is no god, but that they can never know for sure, would be both an atheist and an agnostic. A person who has never heard of gods, and has never had the opportunity to turn ta belief either way, would be an atheist but would not be an agnostic.

posted on Wednesday, Dec 13, 2023 10:18:22 AM
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Mr. Wednesday
1

Reading through this, it's a bit difficult to understand what point this person is trying to make aside from just being contrarian. In fact, they seem to switch positions. At first saying that you aren't a real atheist because you don't firmly believe there is no god, then ending by saying that your lack of belief necessitates a firm belief that there is no god.

In that respect, it's hard to tell whether they're committing the definist fallacy . They are using a widely accepted but incorrect definition of atheism, but it's difficult to tell whether they're really using that to advance a point.

What I'm primarily seeing shake out of this is that they just have an issue with the way you phrased your statement. Primarily that they think "I don't believe X" should mean "I believe the opposite of X" whereas you've used it to mean "I do not have enough information to convince me that X is true." Just the way the English language is, that statement on its own could be taken either way, but the meaning often becomes apparent with context. This is really just arguing semantics  

I see an obvious strawman fallacy here when they claim that you're drawing a distinction between the Christian God and other gods when you've made no such statement. The only way I could see this being reasonable is if there's some context from before this exchange that they could have inferred this from.

answered on Monday, Dec 11, 2023 11:00:21 AM by Mr. Wednesday

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Jack writes:

I'm going to have to agree with the ai response. And that false dictomy as being one of the main fallacies. I forgot about that one. Indeed, just because you don't have a belief that something is true does not you believe that something to be false.

posted on Tuesday, Dec 12, 2023 09:05:14 AM
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Mr. Wednesday writes:

[To Jack]

Based on a more careful reading of this exchange, I'm going to take back my first paragraph. That said, I don't think this qualifies as a false dichotomy. In the second half of the exchange, starting with "Correct, but that isn't the case here," they are openly acknowledging that the third option, not holding a belief either way, is a possibility. The point they seem to be making is that the way you phrased your statement doesn't effectively communicate that you're taking that third option.

Like I said before, this is really just semantics revolving around the meaning of "I do not believe." By a literal interpretation of the words, you are correct that it could mean that you lack a belief. However, a native English speaker would typically use that phrase to mean that you believe the opposite (either firmly, or with uncertainty) and they're arguing that's the only possible interpretation.

[ login to reply ] posted on Tuesday, Dec 12, 2023 01:49:54 PM
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Jack writes:
[To Mr. Wednesday]

Semantics bit is a good point. And mind you the person I was speaking English was not his native language. I'm also pretty certain that the statement I made was one of a formal logical statement. 

 

Even though it's about belief which is bit more nuanced and complex than mere binary values it still seems to read like a formal not statement/argument.

[ login to reply ] posted on Tuesday, Dec 12, 2023 06:45:36 PM
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Jack
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After some careful consideration the fallacies here are logical inconsistency and false dichotomy. Then interlocutor is implying my argument is this:

 

1. I do not believe x is not true. 

2. Nor do I believe x is true. 

3. Therefore I believe x is false. 

Both premises make up the whole argument and then conclusion doesn't follow from them. 

 

If we remove the the first premise the false dichotomy becomes more clear.

 

1. I do not believe x is true. 

2. Therefore I believe x is false.

= False dichotomy. Just because I do not believe x is true does it  necessarily or even absolutely follow that I believe x is false. I may not know anything about x, I may be indifferent or I may not have enough information to make a judgement.

To use an analogy just because I do not believe it will rain tomorrow does not mean I believe it won't rain. I could just not have enough info on the matter and hence no belief about it either way AKA absence of belief. 

 

If we go back to just using the x notation for the statement to logically valid it should be: 

 

1. I do not believe x is not true. 

2. Nor do I believe x is true.

3. Therefore, I have no belief regarding the falsity or truth value of x. 

And this reads exactly the same way as:

1. I do not believe God does not exist.

2. Nor do I believe God does exist.

3. Therefore I have no belief regarding the falsity or truth value of the existence of God. 

Basically here no affirmation or denial regarding the existence of a diety is made. Or to put it another way no affirmation is being made about the existence or non-existence of x (or God).

 

 

 

 

 

answered on Tuesday, Dec 12, 2023 06:34:49 PM by Jack

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Jack writes:

However the whole argument seems somewhat redundant. Wouldn't it be easier to just say " I do not have a belief that x exists?". 

posted on Tuesday, Dec 12, 2023 07:01:18 PM