Question

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mike

Stop and frisk

Person A: Stop and frisk saves lives, there fore we should implement stop and frisk.

Person B: But the cost is too high, think of all the innocent people needlessly harassed. Banning cars would save lives too, so lets ban cars.

Has either person committed a logical fallacy? What is your opinions of person B's retort?

 

 

asked on Wednesday, Feb 12, 2020 08:04:49 PM by mike

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Answers

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mchasewalker
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Stop and frisk saves lives, there fore we should implement stop and frisk.

The claim sure calls for a lot of assumption and implication on our parts. First of all, what exactly are we stopping and frisking for? Is it a rock concert and we're looking for contraband, cameras, alcohol, paraphernalia, etc.? Does confiscation of these actually save lives? I'm not sure that's a valid claim or conclusion. Assuming we are talking about Mayor Bloomberg's Stop and Frisk policy in New York City the controversial racial profiling policy proved to be illegal but nevertheless led to crimes being lowered significantly in certain minority communities. Saving lives was an ancillary benefit, but the effort itself focused on diminishing the amount of illegal hand gun possession and lowering crime. Equating Stop and Frisk with saving lives is a weak premise at best.

Therefore, we should implement Stop and Frisk.

They did, it helped lower crime rates, but was grossly prejudicial to over 90% of those who were stopped and frisked who were never charged with any crime whatsoever.  So we're dealing with a hasty generalization: 

Sample S is taken from population P.

Sample S is a very small part of population P.

Conclusion C is drawn from sample S and applied to population P.

Person B: But the cost is too high

Is it? That's a whole new argument that may or may not be true, but it has no relationship to the original claim of saving lives. It seems to be a bit of a Red Herring.

Think of all the innocent people needlessly harassed.

Indeed, this is a perfectly logical argument that can be statistically supported.

Banning cars would save lives too, so lets ban cars.

Huh? That's definitely a Straw Man argument. Hand guns are illegal in New York City. They are lethal weapons that can be used in self-defense or to commit crimes. Cars are legal methods of transportation and commerce. To compare hand guns with automobiles is a false equivalence. Can car accidents occur? Yes. But they cannot be concealed and their use is vital to the commercial livelihood of a city and its patrons and citizens. The claim that banning automobiles would save lives is dubious. Pedestrians are killed everyday by falling cranes, crumbling scaffoldings, and cell phone distraction. Would you compare banning hand guns to banning walking? Of course not. 

 

 

 

answered on Thursday, Feb 13, 2020 01:14:44 PM by mchasewalker

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mike writes:
It was in reference to Bloombergs stop and frisk policy.

I disagree with the straw man claim, it was a valid analogy and meant to show that there are costs associated with banning something in order to save lives, and wasn't comparing guns to cars.
posted on Thursday, Feb 13, 2020 02:01:12 PM
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mchasewalker writes:
You're conflating the supposed cost of stop and frisk with banning cars. This is a non-sequitur. What relationship does one have with the other?
posted on Thursday, Feb 13, 2020 02:08:28 PM
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mike writes:
The car analogy is meant to show that they both represent trade offs so it's not a non-sequitur. If I had simply said "stop and frisk saves lives, lets ban cars" without the analogy then you could charge non-sequitur.
posted on Thursday, Feb 13, 2020 02:45:37 PM
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Quinten writes:
The trade offs are not remotely similar. Stop and frisk affects a relatively small and focused proportion of the population with the consequence of a minimal loss of time where banning cars indiscriminately cripples everyone’s way of life.
posted on Friday, Feb 14, 2020 08:01:37 AM
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mike writes:
I wasn't arguing for a ban or cars, it was a rhetorical comment meant to encourage the person contemplating stop and frisk to include costs in his calculas before advocating for it.
posted on Friday, Feb 14, 2020 08:31:28 AM
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Bryan writes:
There was no analogy between cars and hand guns. Your straw man is a straw man.
posted on Friday, Feb 14, 2020 11:03:53 AM
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mchasewalker writes:
IN NYCMost murders are committed by black/brown men against black/brown men with illegal handguns in minority neighborhoods.
Stop and Frisk reduced the murder rate of black/brown men by 50%.
Stop and Frisk saves lives and should be implemented.
posted on Friday, Feb 14, 2020 11:29:28 AM
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mike writes:
Would you feel the same way about a policy that allows the police to conduct arbitrary searches in peoples homes without a warrant? Surely that would save lives too?
posted on Friday, Feb 14, 2020 02:00:51 PM
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Richard Aberdeen writes:
"Comparing cars to handguns" - This is true, it is a false equivalence. Comparing God to the spaghetti monster - this is a far greater "false equivalence".
posted on Friday, Feb 14, 2020 03:13:42 PM
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bruce writes:
Aberdeen is back to FSM and God. I've met neither and have no way to evaluate their equivalence lack thereof.
posted on Friday, Feb 14, 2020 03:50:55 PM
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Bryan writes:
No Richard, there is no false equivalence in the FSM analogy, both are unfalsifiable. Just because you don't like it doesn't mean you have to railroad other topics.
posted on Friday, Feb 14, 2020 06:51:10 PM
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Bo Bennett, PhD
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Stop and frisk saves lives, there fore we should implement stop and frisk.

There is a missing premise here, but the premise can be implied... that we want to save lives. This is fine as a starting point for a discussion, but it simply is one of the "pros" for the pros and cons of such a policy (assuming it is factually accurate). No fallacy.

But the cost is too high, think of all the innocent people needlessly harassed. Banning cars would save lives too, so lets ban cars. 

This is a simple response pointing out of the "cons" on the pros and cons list (assuming factually accurate). It is then followed by an analogy with a touch of sarcasm. Personally, I think it is a strong analogy that points out we must consider the total cost of our policies beyond simply "saving lives." No fallacies here either.

answered on Thursday, Feb 13, 2020 06:57:29 AM by Bo Bennett, PhD

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Quinten writes:
The car analogy is a false equivalence fallacy.
posted on Thursday, Feb 13, 2020 08:41:53 AM
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Bryan writes:
They seem fairly equilivent to me; there's a remote chance of it saving lives, if at all, and there are other factirs which need to be considered.
posted on Friday, Feb 14, 2020 10:56:13 AM
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Richard Aberdeen writes:
Perhaps a better idea is to insist on gun control. Comparative murder rates: U.S. 5.2% per 100K persons; ALL of Europe: 1.2% or lower, China 0.6% One can verify the fact our nation remains insane by searching "international homicide rates" online
posted on Friday, Feb 14, 2020 03:09:41 PM
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Bryan writes:
I wouldn't disagree, however that has nothing to do with whether there's a fallacy.
posted on Friday, Feb 14, 2020 06:47:27 PM
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Quinten
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The car analogy is a false equivalence. 

answered on Thursday, Feb 13, 2020 08:43:30 AM by Quinten

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Bo Bennett, PhD writes:
The false equivalence is one of the more subject fallacies. Why is the comparison being made and are they similar for that reason? As I read this, the car analogy demonstrates there is more to consider than just saving lives, therefore it reasonable.
posted on Thursday, Feb 13, 2020 08:48:25 AM
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Quinten writes:
A valid argument would be to state that there’s more to consider and list the considerations. That banning cars is unreasonable doesn’t mean frisking is. The only thing they have in common is that they need fully considered? Doesn’t everything?
posted on Friday, Feb 14, 2020 07:52:57 AM
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Bryan writes:
I see that you've changed it to one is reasonable and the other isn't, while the analogy was that there are other factors to consider.
posted on Friday, Feb 14, 2020 11:00:44 AM
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tuqqer
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Person A: Stop and frisk saves lives, there fore we should implement stop and frisk.

Faulty generalization: reach a conclusion from a weak premise. Or at least Hasty Generalization: fallacy of a lonely fact.

answered on Thursday, Feb 20, 2020 03:35:43 PM by tuqqer

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mike writes:

I disagree.

If objective data can show it saves lives, the statement is partly accurate, up until the "saves lives part".

Whether it's justified as a policy is another matter.

 

posted on Thursday, Feb 20, 2020 04:00:51 PM
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Richard Aberdeen writes:

Object data clearly demonstrates that 1) over 30,000 Americans annually die from lack of affordable healthcare and b) global pollution kills more people annually than traffic accidents, cancer or any other single cause of death (other than dying from old age).

It is then fair to ask, why are conservatives so in favor of "stop and frisk" and, so against universal healthcare and regulations aimed at reducing air, soil, water and other pollution? 

posted on Friday, Feb 21, 2020 11:54:03 AM
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tuqqer writes:

Yes, it's fair to ask. 

[ login to reply ] posted on Friday, Feb 21, 2020 11:59:01 AM
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Aryan
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Person A: A form of Cherry Picking, he is only saying that it saves lives, not mentioning the cost or downsides.

Person B: He is doing the same thing with the "Banning cars" part, but I think that was more rhetoric or sarcastic.

Those are the two I can see.

answered on Wednesday, Mar 04, 2020 11:43:29 PM by Aryan

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