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Chris

Is it fallacious to argue that if you want a minimum wage at $X / hr, why not just make it $Z / hr where Z > X ad nauseum

A friend of mine on FB always likes to jump into political conversations to 'play devil's advocate' and I honestly don't know what they believe anymore not that it really matters. That being said in a recent discussion on the minimum wage they hit me with this gem.

"Why stop at $15 an hour? Why not make the federal minimum wage $100 or $200 or $1000 an hour? What would be the downside of that?"

To me, at least, this reeks of a slippery slope by way of a strawman. A strawman because I never set a number nor would I ever think we should just arbitrarily set even a $30+ / hr minimum without good reason and a slippery slope because while I get that it's not directly implying that setting a $15 / hr minimum would lead to higher and higher minimums, it's clearly rhetorically doing something to the effect by implying that if someone wants a minimum set at $X / hr why not just do $X + infinity / hr.

tl;dr Is it fallacious to argue that if you want a minimum wage at $X / hr, why not just make it $Z / hr where Z > X ad nauseum?

 

asked on Tuesday, Mar 02, 2021 09:21:36 PM by Chris

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account no longer exists writes:

I don't see an argument being offered by your FB friend, only a conclusion. Without some reasoning, i.e., some premises, I can't tell if there are any fallacies or not. In other words, this is unsupported conclusion.

posted on Wednesday, Mar 03, 2021 04:05:58 AM
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richard smith writes:

Most people that says things like this are trying to phrase an argument as a question. It is based on the slippery slope fallacy.

posted on Wednesday, Mar 03, 2021 08:12:29 AM

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Answers

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Bo Bennett, PhD
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Yes, you nailed it. This is a slippery slope fallacy. While the usage may be a bit different from the textbook examples, the reasoning follows the same fallacious pattern.

answered on Tuesday, Mar 02, 2021 09:42:58 PM by Bo Bennett, PhD

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Dr. Richard
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There is no argument here, simply conclusions.

I think your friend is starting too high in the hierarchical structure of reasoning, and you bit the bait. Before one begins discussing something (X), the parties must agree to operative definitions and agree upon the premises.

In this case, the discussion rests upon the figure of the minimum wage. Before that, you need to examine whether any minimum wage at any level is proper. To do that, you need to explore the minimum wage's purpose and see if any minimum accomplishes that purpose without creating unintended consequences that are much worse than the proposed benefit of any minimum wage.  

Dr. Walter Williams wrote several short excellent articles on the subject. You can find extensive research by Dr. Thomas Sowell, Dr. Daniel Mitchell,  or Dr. Reisman. 

answered on Wednesday, Mar 03, 2021 07:29:49 AM by Dr. Richard

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Jordan Pine
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This is more of a reductio ad absurdum than a slippery slope argument.

The slippery slope would argue we can't increase the minimum wage because then politicians would keep increasing it every time they wanted to score easy points with voters. That argument would sound more like: "If we go to $15 an hour, it won't stop there. Every time these politicians are up for election, they'll raise it again. Soon the minimum wage will be $20, then $30 and so on."

On the other hand, those who argue "why stop?" are trying to illustrate the fallacy of assuming that mandating a minimum wage actually helps the people it claims to help. The idea is that when you get to a high enough number, you'll realize that only MBAs would be qualified to flip burgers or some other absurd situation, and that will lead you to realize the minimum wage is actually zero -- that is, unemployment for the under-qualified.

If we wanted to assign a logical fallacy to this argument, I agree that it would be the strawman fallacy. In essence, this reductio increases the "straw" until the opposing argument is easy to knock down. Indeed, it increases the straw until the argument falls apart on its own.

We could also say this reductio is indirectly begging the question, which is: Does a $15 minimum wage do more harm or good?

answered on Wednesday, Mar 03, 2021 08:21:06 AM by Jordan Pine

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Bo Bennett, PhD writes:

The reductio is used when a proposition is disproven by following its implications logically to an absurd conclusion. "Why stop at $15 an hour? Why not make the federal minimum wage $100 or $200 or $1000 an hour? What would be the downside of that?" fails to do that. In other words, suggesting an extreme on an continuum doesn't even make an ideal value on the continuum less reasonable, let alone make it absurd or "disproven." By this reasoning, we can also say that $3 per hour leads to absurdity... "Why stop at $3?..." The absurdity is in the proposed numbers in the argument, not in the inevitable outcome.

A similar example without the political bias: "Why charge .50 for lemonade at the neighborhood stand? Why not $5 or $50 or a billion dollars? What would be the downside of that?" There is no rational and calculated reductio here; it is simply a fallacious slippery slope argument where each "step" is not a logical progression from the previous one. We don't look at this "argument" and conclude "Yeah, .50 is absurd." That would be poor reasoning.

posted on Wednesday, Mar 03, 2021 09:03:12 AM
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Jordan Pine writes:
[To Bo Bennett, PhD]

The reductio is used when a proposition is disproven by following its implications logically to an absurd conclusion

Hmmm. I'm not sure why the argument in question doesn't qualify then? Perhaps the problem is the construction we're using (from the original question). Perhaps representing the argument differently makes plain its reductio intentions?

I tried to do that with my 'MBA burger flippers,' an absurd end situation meant to follow the implications of artificially raising wages to where unemployment of the under-qualified because obvious.

Here's a different, perhaps better example from a Wall Street Journal letter to the editor:

"Please, if creating a 'significant economic stimulus' were as easy as decreeing higher wage rates, why stop at $10 or $15 per hour? Why not $20 or $50, so that everybody has lots of income?"

To your point, though, here's a different example (this one from Forbes) that isn't a reductio:

"Proponents for $10.10 [as a minimum wage] don’t exactly say where that number comes from; it’s an increase that grossly exceeds productivity strides among minimum wage workers. So tongue in cheek, I ask why not raise it to $100 while we’re in the business of throwing out random wages? Obviously no serious factions are lobbying for this, but the left is lathering up a slippery wage slope. They essentially want to impose controls on the price of labor."

Note that here, she identifies her own argument as a "slippery (wage) slope."

[ login to reply ] posted on Wednesday, Mar 03, 2021 09:55:30 AM
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Bo Bennett, PhD writes:
[To Jordan Pine]

The question, "Why not X+Y?" is perfectly legit, assuming Y isn't absurd (or a better word, ridiculous). Consider:

I'll pay my workers $10 per hour.
Why not $15?

Now, a constructive conversation can be had as to why $10 is better than $15 or vice versa. However,

I'll pay my workers $10 per hour.
Why not a billion dollars?

Now this is just being silly and perhaps a bit childish. I would even say there is a argument of the beard fallacy here (and with the $50 -$100 retorts). Wages, like the drinking age, are set based on many factors, so it is not arbitrary or random, but it's also not objective, meaning there is some ideal value on what can be considered a bell curve.

For the argument

Please, if creating a 'significant economic stimulus' were as easy as decreeing higher wage rates...

I know this isn't your argument, but it reeks of the strawman fallacy . Perhaps someone once did claim that "creating a significant economic stimulus is as easy as decreeing higher wage rates," but I doubt it. Even if they did, there is no claim that the higher the wage, the better the results. Anyone taking this argument seriously knows that there is some ideal value for minimum wage, and as we stray from that value, positive or negative, the economic results worsen. Therefore, the entire "why not [some ridiculous amount] here?" should not even be taking seriously.

[ login to reply ] posted on Wednesday, Mar 03, 2021 10:12:20 AM
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Jordan Pine writes:

[To Bo Bennett, PhD]

I was with you until here:

Anyone taking this argument seriously knows that there is some ideal value for minimum wage, and as we stray from that value, positive or negative, the economic results worsen.

I think you are missing something important here. The premise underlying this particular argument is not there is some “ideal value” for the minimum wage. It is that a minimum wage is not ideal at all. That is, that the market should set wages, not governments. The absurdities seek to illustrate why by exaggerating the distorting effect of the government intervention.

Otherwise, I agree with you that the argument is a straw man and can certainly become childish. (ad absurdum arguments in general strike me as childish.) If making this argument, I would favor walking the other person toward my point as you suggest; i.e. by increasing the wage in more reasonable increments. If $15, why not $20? Why not $25?

[ login to reply ] posted on Wednesday, Mar 03, 2021 04:59:34 PM
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Bo Bennett, PhD writes:
[To Jordan Pine]

I gotcha. Chalk that one up to my political ignorance. I didn't think abolishing the minimum wage all together was a position that was even seriously considered given that this has been in effect since 1938 and survived both conservative and liberal governments.

[ login to reply ] posted on Wednesday, Mar 03, 2021 09:30:45 PM
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Jordan Pine writes:
[To Bo Bennett, PhD]

No worries. Welcome to Libertarian thinking! ;-) It's seriously considered but also realistic and patient because of exactly what you wrote: No matter who is in power, statism seems to remain the status quo.

For further reading, check out this Walter Williams article from 2007.

Or check out this more current video by John Stossel.

[ login to reply ] posted on Thursday, Mar 04, 2021 11:29:59 AM
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account no longer exists
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Straw man and red herring: Minimum wage is not a living wage. 

Also, our economic system has no problem with profit inflation when it comes to shareholders demanding big bucks from the CEO but when it comes to wages everybody has a cow. Read up on wages during the Black Death. Sorry. Read it in a book somewhere that escapes me. But it's out there somewhere.

answered on Wednesday, Mar 03, 2021 09:33:23 AM by account no longer exists

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Dr. Richard writes:

You are arguing the issue, not the thought process. 

posted on Thursday, Mar 04, 2021 06:45:02 AM
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account no longer exists writes:

We seem to be becoming from different schools of thought but reaching the same concultion; only in reverse:

https://pathosethoslogos.com/

 

 

posted on Thursday, Mar 04, 2021 10:30:01 PM