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god the mob boss

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Original Question

God's ultimatum to humanity is this: either worship me or suffer a fate worse than death in hell for eternity.


I know that there are other variations of hell and afterlife, but the most common and traditional version of hell in Christianity and in most Abrahamic religions is the eternal torture in hell, so I'll use that.


The argument apologists love to use is that the mere event of 'creating' you is a sufficient reason to hold you ransom; meaning that he can wish to do whatever he wants to do with you and he'd still retain his omnibenevolent title. In this case if you refuse to worship him, he is justified to send you to hell.


So the argument goes as follows: "if you do not worship god, then he is justified in sending you to hell, because he created you"


If someone were to conflate this with a reductio argument such as: "if a mob boss gave $2 billion to a homeless person and as a result their life was completely turned around for the better, they live in a mansion, eat the best food, wear the best clothes, etc. then the mob boss asks this former homeless person to rob a bank or else he'll suffer a fate worse than death, this is because where he is now is necessarily because of the money he gave him" is this a valid reductio? and the second question is did the apologist commit any fallacies in assuming that creation alone is sufficient to treat the created being in whatever way the creator sees fit?

Comments on Question

Your Christian theology isn't remotely correct. As far as other Abrahamic traditions go, Jews have very little interest in discussing the afterlife. Muslims, from my understanding, will say that you face justice after you die, but how much and in what way is unknown.


Trying to be as factually accurate as possible is important to making reasoned arguments even if it is not an error in logic.

Answers

3

I see no fallacies here, just, in my opinion, a sick and twisted sense of morality. It is the idea of slavery; that one can essentially "own" another person by doing them a favor - especially one they did not ask for. However, there is no analogy that works well (enough) because the concept of God, according to theists, is unlike anything else (i.e., they would argue a weak analogy ) - abusive husband, horrible parents, mob boss, slave owner, etc. The theists justify this cosmic threat (worship me or burn in Hell for eternity) in many ways, one of which you mention (i.e., he created you, so you are his bitch) but also that God in his ever-loving and just grace, gives us the choice of worshiping him, and we get to choose between this and Hell. Of course, this is extremely problematic. Atheism is not the refusing to worship; it is the disbelief in any gods. We cannot worship that in which we don't believe exists. Further, the whole idea that one can "choose" to believe in something is not the case, which nullifies the entire argument of "atheists choose to go to hell."


The only strong analogy here is the thought experiment of humans being able to create life. Not by giving birth, but more along the lines of AI within a biological form that can experience the spectrum of human experiences. If we were capable of doing this, can we allow these beings to be tortured for eternity if they do not "choose" to meet a condition such as worship us? Especially when we have the power to ensure they are not tortured for eternity? If we did allow for a such a punishment, what would that say about our morality?


The entire concept of hell is so absurd, that many theists and even Christians don't accept it (and therefore, that aspect of "God"). I would guess that the cognitive dissonance one feels attempting to hold a concept of an all-loving God and people like Ghandi burning in hell for eternity is so strong that the idea of a Hell can no longer be held. Of course, this is just people creating their own version of a god that is palatable to them.

I think a theist would argue this is a weak analogy because God has nothing in common with a mob boss.


First, God creates and sustains life, which is far greater than any one act of kindness no matter the magnitude. 


Second, God is omniscient and knows what is best for each person. Him 'doing whatever he wants' with his creation is really him putting his omniscience to use by fulfilling his purpose for each sentient creature. He's doing it from a place of caring, compared to a mob boss who is doing it for selfish gain.


Third, God is not holding anyone to ransom because humans have freewill. God created humans with the ability to make choices and reason about these choices. This can't be compared to the mob boss who coerces people into doing his dirty work.


Fourth, the nature of the demand is different. God is merely asking that you worship him - this need not be for a lengthy amount of time per day - as your creator. The mob boss' demand strips you of your agency, dignity, and puts you at high risk of personal loss (arrest, conviction, etc.) God's request for worship does not do this.


I'm no theist, but I can imagine this is how they would respond. Obviously, the argument assumes that God ought to be worshipped, and he is thus justified in condemning people if they don't. "He created you" intuitively isn't sufficient justification, even if we can defuse the 'mob boss' objection.

As always, check the premises. 


I stop when anyone tells me that “God said [fill in the blank]” to engage me in a discussion of whatever fills the blank. Then, in Boghossian style, I ask the person which god and how the person knows what that god said. 


 


 

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